Accuracy in Media

A claim by Bobbie Ann Williams, a Little Rock prostitute, that her son, Danny, was fathered by Bill Clinton has been proven false by DNA analysis. Star, the tabloid that first published Gennifer Flowers? claim that she had been one of Clinton?s lovers, was reported to have paid Williams “a low six-figure” sum for exclusive rights to the story. It arranged to have Danny?s DNA checked against that of the President. On January 9, the Drudge Report broke the news that Time magazine had learned that the DNA tests cleared Clinton.

Time ran a short story in its January 15 issue under the headline, “Scandal Interruptus; A bit less Jefferson in William Jefferson Clinton.” What Time was trying to do in this strange headline was to remind its readers of the claim that DNA tests had proven that Thomas Jefferson had fathered a son by his slave, Sally Hemings, as it reported that DNA tests had cleared Bill Clinton of fathering a son by a black hooker.

The claim by Bobbie Ann Williams that Clinton was the father of her son Danny had been spread by Robert McIntosh, a black Little Rock businessman, during the 1992 presidential campaign. It was not picked up by the national media, but the Globe, a supermarket tabloid that doesn?t have a reputation for accuracy, paid Williams for her story and ran it in February 1992, with a photo of Danny that showed a resemblance to Clinton.

Clinton never offered to submit to a paternity test to prove that the rumor was false, but McIntosh abruptly ended his effort to spread it. After Clinton won the election, McIntosh?s son, who was serving a long prison term on drug charges, was pardoned by the black speaker of the Arkansas House of Representatives who was acting governor for a brief period while Clinton was away. This, combined with the mounting evidence of Clinton?s promiscuity, revived interest in the Danny story on the Internet and talk radio. It was reported that the Williams family wanted Clinton to submit to a paternity test.

Bobbie Ann Williams? claim that Clinton was the father was based on her assertion that Clinton had been her only white client when Danny was conceived. Clinton?s reaction to her claims suggests that he feared that a paternity test might prove that she was telling the truth. He did not hail the Star?s decision to pay for DNA testing.

In reporting that the DNA test had cleared Clinton, The Washington Post gave none of this background. Referring to it as “a love child story,” it did not reveal that the mother was a black prostitute. It described her claim as “utterly bogus” and “slimy.” That was how the Washington Post justified its never having reported the story. The Post and others rushed to publicize a bogus claim that DNA tests had proven that Thomas Jefferson had fathered a child by a slave. The British journal that first published the claim has now admitted that it was inaccurate, but as Time?s headline on the Danny story showed, this has not erased the original error from the minds of all journalists.




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Comments

  • leebert

    How did they get Clinton’s DNA in the first place to make the test?

  • Rick Sander

    That was my first thought.

  • G L

    “That was my first thought.”

    Mine, too.

  • Kerry Kolsch

    Propaganda. Bill is the father. Ask Say Mcintosh who was paid ff for years to stop saying Danny was Bills.

  • Takiwa

    This story is bogus.
    He never took the test.

  • Robert_Morrow

    Roger Altman, who in 1999 OWNED The Star Tabloid, has been friends with Bill Clinton since his college days at Georgetown. Altman was later in the Clinton Administration and he is a $250,000 donor in 2015 to Priorities USA, a pro Hillary Clinton PAC. The Star article was a complete Clinton fabrication placed in the tabloid of a Clinton BFF (best friend forever). Idiots like Howard Kurtz of the Wash Post took this garbage at face value and then TIME magazine also reprinted the disinformation. Then AIM put up this absolutely disagraceful article about a phony DNA story planted by the Clintons. The reason the story was planted in the first place was because NewsMax in late 1998 had run several articles about Bill Clinton being the father of Danney Williams, so in early 1999 The Star responded with the disinfo article.

  • Robert_Morrow

    Roger Altman – OWNER of The Star in 1999, good friends with Bill Clinton since Georgetown in the 1960’s!!! http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/stories/1997-06-22/roger-altman-hits-the-street-running

  • Robert_Morrow

    100% true. Bill Clinton’s abandoned son Danney Williams, age 30, is alive and well on both Facebook and Twitter. Look him up!

  • Robert_Morrow

    This story is completely bogus. AIM needs to “correct the record” and do a follow up article saying The Star tabloid in 1999 was owned by Roger Altman and did a disinformation story on a DNA test that never happened.

  • Robert_Morrow

    The Star NEVER got Clinton’s DNA. The Star in 1999 owned by Roger Altman, it was a disinfo story, totally made up. Altman, friends with Bill Clinton since Georgetown in 1960’s and a huge Clinton donor.

  • Daniel

    Obviously Bill was with Bobbie Ann Williams! Otherwise, why would they do a DNA test? Bill didn’t have sex with Monica either…haha, Clintons are a crime family they should be made to face the consequences…my opinion.

  • Kerry Kolsch

    Accuracy in Media is not accurate.

  • Kerry Kolsch

    Monica got pregnant and had an abortion during her time with Bill and claimed the pregnancy was by another man. I always thought that story was bogus.

  • Jonathan Miller

    A cigar from the WH, or a blue dress scraping from Monica Lewinski?

  • Est Ban

    Reed Irvine and Cliff Kincaid you blabbermouth ignoramuses! DNA tests could never prove if Thomas Jefferson fathered a black- child with his deceased wife’s half-sister Sally Hemmings for the fact that there were other close relatives of Jefferson also living with Sally at the time and Thomas Jefferson(TJ) has no known direct descendants. Some of these co-habiting Jefferson male relatives were much younger than TJ and more likely to impregnate a woman without the aid of modern medicine, i.e. viagra cialis etc, TJ was not a young man at the alleged time. Although considered as one of the fathers of our country, at his age TJ would probably not have prevailed over the stiff competition meted out by his younger aged relatives.
    As for Bill Clinton, who did the DNA test and who provided the DNA? My guess is it wasn’t Chelsea since she allegedly has no Bill Clinton DNA.

  • Brad Kingsland

    So much for it takes a village and black lives matter…

  • al

    I’m clinton’s other abandoned son. I’m only 5 years older than billy.

  • al

    kenneth starr gave them a sample from evidence, and if you recall he was no clinton fan.

  • Est Ban

    Yeah right! Who did he give the sample from evidence to and where is the sample now???

  • Beedogz
  • zumur

    makes me happy someone has done the real research and knows that this story is bogus and what really happened back then. keep up the good work, Robert.

  • Kerry Kolsch

    You make me laugh. Starr was in charge of the cover up.

  • Tanya Hutchins

    DNA proves relation and can be used to tell how close of a relation. Age has nothing to do with ability to father a child. There are men in their 80s fathering kids.

  • The Jig Is Up

    There was no DNA test.
    Roger Stone proves this in his book “The Clinton’s war on Women”.
    All black lives matter to Hillary, unless you are her stepson that she knows exists but will not acknowledge.
    Black people only matter to her if she needs their vote.

  • trac ingr

    Someone follow Bill around and get any glass or cup he drinks from, then we can tell.

  • Banksters_Rule_the_World

    What? No maternity test!

  • Est Ban

    Tanya the claim is TJ ‘FATHERED’. DNA cannot prove this as I explained, no if ands or buts. There are men pushing 90 that can father children. It is however, more likely that a younger male will father a child. I did not claim TJ did not father, i claimed he was less likely to do so than any of the the younger Jefferson suspects. How many 80-90 year olds have you had sex with?? Enough said do not further flaunt you ignorance as the the two ignorant blabbermouths did above.

  • Alex Yamach

    Another dirty trick by the RNC trying to smear the Clinton’s and ruin Hillary’s campaign. I wonder how much Danny Williams was paid by an RNC operative to start speaking out and approching media outlets with his bogus story. Another “Swiftboat” attempt by the GOP..

  • marktomark

    yeah sure bill and KILLARY are the biggest CORRUPT LIARS out there !

  • G L

    You do know that Starr was largely chosen and approved of by the Clintons before the investigation began, right? There was another special prosecutor before him who was nixed by them before anything got off the ground.

  • G L

    The DNA sample came from Jefferson’s uncle, not Thomas Jefferson, himself. All that can be told, therefore, is that DNA came from any one of a few dozen members of Jefferson’s family who lived in the area at the time.

    There was a review of the information not long ago by experts, professors, historians, etc., part of the Thomas Jefferson Historical Society, who concluded that the likely father was Randolph Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson’s brother, or one of his sons. Their report is compelling, and publicly available.

  • J R Moses

    Lies, lies and more lies. The media must be making a shitload of money protecting these thieves in D.C. Bill did NOT take a test.

  • Rudi

    You put them first while they out you last.

  • Rudi

    Right, he’s allowed to just keep this stuff on file to throw around as he wishes ? Idiot…

  • Rudi

    You’re so desperate to believe in those phones that it’s sad. This has been an open secret for decades. The DNC has revealed its corruption this election. People don’t like Hillary.

  • Rudi

    Well if your mom was a pro in little rock and time travel was even theoretically possible I’d say that you might be right !

  • Alex Yamach

    And Newsmax is a Right Wing rag who’s sole purpose is to pump out stories descrediting Dems in every way possible. Constantly trolling with innuendo, no proof and false claims like a tabloid to try to smear people. And you dumb right wingers just lap it up.

  • Elysium10

    The DNA story was planted by the Clintons according to Olivia Nuzzi of The Dally Beast ( May 21, 2016) in ” My Quest to Find Bill Clinton’s Love Child :

    “…several mainstream media outlets—the New York Daily News and The Mirror (U.K.), The Washington Times—cleared Clinton with headlines like “CLINTON NO JEFFERSON, LOVE CHILD NOT HIS” and “CLINTON IS NOT DAD OF HOOKER’S BOY, 13.” But those who believe the conspiracy weren’t put off, since, as Slate concluded at the time, it’d be impossible to determine if Clinton was Danney’s father based only on the “imprecise” data provided by the FBI and Starr.”

    The article goes on to state:

    “Much of these flames have been stoked… by the authors of “The Clintons’ War on Women,: Roger Stone—a longtime Trump adviser and Robert Morris …In February, I sat down in Des Moines with Morrow, who admitted he had never met Danney, to talk about the story. “They made it up!” he said of Star magazine’s DNA test. “It’s Clinton-disinfo. It’s a planted story—a fake planted story. There was no DNA test. Prove it! Where? Danney don’t know about it. Star magazine didn’t know about. Stone talks to the current people who own those magazines [and] they say, ‘what are you talking about?’”
    The point is there is no proof that Danny is Bill’s child and there is no proof he isn’t, except for the fact that in Primary Colors, the supposedly fictional work of Joe Klein (fictional wink- wink) the illegitimate child was conceived by Bill Clinton’s black friend’s daughter, instead of by a hooker. Naturally, Klein claim his work was fictional that is– fiction mirror real life with few minor changings to the guilt some sense of decency. I would take Primary Color for his fictional word–true.

  • Robert_Morrow

    Roger Altman, 1999 Owner of The Star, planted phony DNA story @ Danney Williams/Bill Clinton http://1984arkansasmotheroftheyear.blogspot.com/2015/11/roger-altman-1999-owner-of-star-is-huge.html
    #CrookedHillary

  • Robert_Morrow

    1992 Clintons made deal with Say McIntosh – shut up about Danney Williams being Bill Clinton’s son and we will pardon your son Tommy McIntosh 18 years before he is parole eligible: NYT 1-24-93 “Startling Arkansas, Governor-for-a-Day Sets 2 Convicts Free http://www.nytimes.com/1993/01/24/us/startling-arkansas-governor-for-a-day-sets-2-convicts-free.html
    #CrookedHillary

  • Robert_Morrow

    Chris Ruddy, the owner of NewsMax, is in 2016 a close friend of the Clintons and a closet Hillary Clinton supporter. He scrubbed his web site of all those 1998 NewsMax stories on Danney Williams and Bill Clinton.

  • Robert_Morrow

    Of course there was NO DNA test of Bill Clinton/Danney Williams. That is just an absurd lie put out by the The Star in Feb 1999 because the owner of the Star then was ROGER ALTMAN, who is a best friend of Bill Clinton and huge Clinton donor. Bill Clinton abandoned his only son Danney Williams and this fact is hugely discrediting to the Clintons.

  • Robert_Morrow

    I suggest reading the comments section of Fishbowl NY “Olivia Nuzzi and the #ClintonKid – http://www.adweek.com/fishbowlny/olivia-nuzzi-daily-beast-danney-williams/376073#comment-2690342522

  • Elysium10

    Thanks Robert I read that article prior. My Comment was to poke fun at the obvious. I have studied the Clintons since 1992; when they appeared on 60 Minutes. I sensed then they were frauds and at the time I was a Democrat. Naturally, my view did not sit well with the true believers, in fact I was resented. To determine if I was wrong and the true believers were right or vice versa, I read and research everything that came out on the Clintons, turning every stone, which was proving me right, so I never ever voted for them. My conscious would not permit it. As I saw it, when came to being rejected for my views, for thinking, for refusing to delegate my mind and spirit and labor to frauds, my view was reject me, because the feeling is mutual:

    “One million zeroes do not add up to one”

    Because of the Clintons and mindlessness of the flock, I left the party. I did vote for Obama. I am an independent. I will never compromise with evil and never accept the irrational propaganda of choosing the lesser of two evils. This is nonsense. To cut a deal with evil or the lesser of two evils, is not choice because both are evil and Evil wins–period. This tactic is to prevent one from seeking other option, from becoming innovative and creative, it a cloak to continuing the dumbing down of the mass dressed up to delude. Death is death, there is no lesser death.

    For me Danny’s story is not new, the masses are finally catching up to the truth and different reality. I’ve been sitting on the dock of the bay wondering, ” What kept them so long?”

    I should point out you are right about The Star magazine bring owned by Clintons good friend Roger Altman and the friendship was confirmed in Bloomberg News, June 23, 1997 entitled “:Roger Altman Hits The Street Running”:

    “…Altman, 50, is a longtime friend of Bill Clinton from their Georgetown University days. But as acting chairman of the Resolution Trust Co., Altman was raked over the coals. Some senators investigating Whitewater accused him of misleading them about whether he tipped off the White House about a criminal investigation of a failed Arkansas thrift with ties to Clinton. Altman resigned in 1994. Subsequent investigations cleared him of any criminal or ethical misconduct. Altman declined public comment.”

    Also in the New York Times, February 17, 1999 “Investment Group Buys The National Enquirer and Star Magazine,” by Alex Kucyznski, wrote:

    “A Manhattan investment firm has purchased the company that owns The National Enquirer and Star magazine and hired the head of the nation’s third-largest magazine publisher to run and expand it. The investment group, Evercore Capital Partners L.L.C., headed by former Deputy Treasury Secretary Roger C. Altman, announced yesterday that it had acquired the publications for $294 million from American Media Inc., and that David J. Pecker, the president and chief executive officer of Hachette Filipacchi Magazines, a unit of Lagardere Group, would head the company and receive an equity stake.”

    When the media is in bed with the accused, then the truth can become whatever the accused want it to be. I suggest that during one of Hillary upcoming rally, Danny ought parade before the camera with a sign that says:

    ” I am Bill Clinton “alleged” son, but “what difference does it make” since my step-mother will accept me as her own since she said, “There is no such thing as other people’s children, they are all our children” so what is the problem?”
    Lol!

  • New Centurion

    There was no damn test. It was a planted story.

  • hexrei

    This site is hilarious. “Bias watch”, when the site is admittedly partisan? Ridiculous.

  • 209OliveSt!!Mike McAllister

    True or not I would not believe anything CNN said!!!

  • Kate Chinwe Tagbo

    Is it true, why the story not straight?

  • CorruptionInColumbia

    A lot like Snopes!

  • BG Davis

    Well, of course – If some guy on Facebook and Twitter says it’s true, of course it’s true.

  • BG Davis

    One little problem: Clinton wasn’t the one who got Tommy M. out early. But don’t let facts interfere with your fantasy.

  • Robert_Morrow

    The deal was set up and closed under Bill Clinton – shut up about my bastard child and I will make sure Tommy McIntosh gets out of prison. An acting governor did it while Bill was going to DC and Gov. Tucker was out of state at DC inauguration.

  • Est Ban

    Tanya just saw this. There were many other Thomas Jefferson close relatives with access to Sally Hemings. As such, it can not be proven whether T. Jefferson or his close relatives were fathers of this lineage. Given that most men’s reproductive capacity dwindles with age and all of the male close relatives of T.Jefferson with access to Sally Hemings were considerably younger than T. Jefferson, the odds favor that T Jefferson is less likely to be the father. Regardless DNA does not prove whether he is the father and age in itself does not disqualify him from being the father. Understand?

  • Al

    Who needs facts when the lie is more entertaning, especially when the lie butresses your political ideology.

  • Kulie

    Danny Williams is currently a Hilary Clinton’s supporter

  • Karen Keen Botts

    The story said clinton didnt take the dna test so how can dna have proved anything? smh….

  • ALMA RUSSO

    Now really, you know CLINTON paid off the lab. How can we trust anything about the Clinton’s

  • Carolee Straughan

    Many people want to believe the worst about someone…makes them feel superior and holier than thou. That’s what keeps people buying Tabloids.

  • NOLA_Darling

    How can a DNA paternity test prove Clinton isn’t Danny Williams’ father, if Clinton didn’t provide his DNA?

  • Benny Smith

    Can you believe anything the Washington post says? Look at the kid that’s Bill Clinton all over. B

  • thinkingforyourself

    0f course Clinton left town, the Lt Gov could take the heat, and hes the cut out so Clinton can claim he had no knowledge. These guys do that sort of stuff. Seen it happen in several states at different times, governor leaves town and oh gee the Lt Gov suddenly grants 10 pardons. In the late 70’s early 80’s it cost 10 grand in New Mexico to make that happen. All these politicians are crooked, State and Federal level. Several states have actually enacted legislation restricting this ability to pardon, to stop the practice.

  • Barbara Harris Whitfield

    But why does Bill need to pick up a hooker while he is jogging? That’s the real story.

  • Mohammed_Goldberg

    William Jefferson Clinton, the middle name Jefferson from Thomas Jefferson, who fathered mixed race children with a female slave. BJ Clinton may have done the same thing.

  • No Money Down

    Accuracy in Media is covering for the Clinton’s, ask Bill to submit a sample of his DNA, if it’s negative, then I believe it, until then, “If I had a son, he’d look just like Danney Lee Williams- Bill Clinton” sounds about right.

  • Punishment214

    Accuracy in Media (aim.org) is just another division of the Crooked Clinton Cult Member Propaganda Machine.

    Goebbels would be proud of how Hillary/Democrats have turned the media into nothing but a puppet that dances to their lying tune.

  • Malcolm Scott

    It makes no sense, as Danny would not have an active facebook account currently making all of these claims.

  • mahone

    of Course he NEVER took the test, there are probably DOZENS of his kids he doesn’t claim

  • buckh

    This story is quite foggy. Did Clinton actually provide DNA or not?. My guess is that with all of Clinton’s whoring he is not about to provide DNA to anyone. The classic method by the Clinton loving media is to respond by saying “This is old news and has been debunked years ago”. Yeah right. I;m sure he has more than one out there.

  • Deplorable Oma

    I know this was four months ago but THANK YOU. This clears up a lot of the questions I have. The story is front page on Drudge today so everyone is checking it out.

  • Deplorable Oma

    Because he’s Bill Clinton.

  • Deplorable Oma

    Yes, it really is incredible what’s happening around us. It’s all blatant now, they don’t even TRY to hide it. Chilling if you ask me.

  • Deplorable Oma

    Your name. Brilliant.

  • Dave Nantz

    How about accuracy in grammar?

  • Mary

    One question; This person was a prostitute. How does she know WHO the father is?

  • AJAY

    looky looky what’s going on now to bite hillary in the ass. Looks like he should have taken the test.

  • obamaScares

    However, in the case of Bill Clinton’s improprieties and crimes, the TRUTH is stranger and more ghastly than fiction.

  • Deplorable Bry

    You can look him up on twitter. Scrolling through the years, it looks like he has dedicated his life to proving his paternity. This is really sad

  • nepaconservative

    Chickens coming home to roost. Time to take responsibility. DNA test not accounted for.

  • jones

    We right wingers, Love the truth.

  • MikeofAges

    All that is proven absolutely is that male line of SallyHemings descendants are descended from a male Jefferson. This does not prove that the male Jefferson was Thomas. Could have been, but not proven.

  • MikeofAges

    A test for parentage or even consanguinity (relation as a cousin) could not be performed without a sample from that person. If there is a provably Clinton relation in an accessible database such as 23andme or Ancestry, then Williams and that person would show up as a genetic cousin. There would be reason to suspect that Clinton was the father. If the person related to Williams was descended through a male line from the same male ancestor as Clinton and Williams belong to the same y-line, then the suspicion would get stronger. Absent that information, we do not even know what y-line haplogroup Bill Cinton belong to. Williams has to belong to the same haplogroup or Clinton cannot be his father. If they both belong to tge same haplogroup does, then Clinton could be his father, but it would remain unproven absent other information pointing that way or absolute proof.

  • ColdBeer

    Why is it that Bill Clinton’s DNA is always in the news? I wonder how long DNA lasts, I know of someone who has some of Bill Clinton’s. Maybe Danney needs to get in touch with Monica.

  • LOL

    A lot like Fox News, Infowars, The Blaze… Shall I continue, troll?

  • LOL

    Snopes provides sources… name the sources InfoWars provides. Dipshit.

  • LOL

    GOPtard nimrods can’t stand that Drudge, the internet’s biggest troll, debunked a story in 1999 that he’s rolling out now. You all should not breed.

  • LOL

    You realize Trump lies ALL THE TIME!

  • LOL

    Killary? And you have proof for your childish portmanteau? That’s rhetorical. You’re an idiot.

  • Robert_Morrow

    Roger Altman – 1999 Star owner – BFF with
    Bill Clinton since 1965 college http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/1997-06-22/roger-altman-hits-the-street-running
    NO DNA TEST WAS EVER DONE ON DANNEY WILLIAMS!!! Danney is, in fact, the son of Bill Clinton.

  • J R Moses

    He isn’t lying about why four men died in Benghazi. He isn’t lying to the parents of these men. He is lying about breaking security laws that can be dangerous or harmful to America. He isn’t lying about being for women’s rights, while taking huge donations from countries that afford women some of the LEAST rights in the whole world. He hasn’t been PROVEN to be a liar by the FBI as has Hillary. Just keep on “LOL’ing” merrily along while this administration wrecks America…….and Hillary is lurching in the wings to “take the handoff” and keep “running with the ball.”

  • Hollie Mollie

    But when Sally first got pregnant in France none of Jeffersons male relatives were there with her.

  • Hollie Mollie

    That’s why you live Trump eh? Let me guess, you graduated from Trump University?

  • Hollie Mollie

    Well it can be proven. Thomas Jefferson’s Will only freed Sally Hemings Children. Even though his estate was in dire straits and Mulattos were 3 times the price of a black Slave.

    Even his Son Madison dud an interview after TJ died with an Ohio paper claiming Sally told them that Thomas Jefferson fathered all her children.

  • Hollie Mollie

    Really, a White man jogging in the Projects in the South?

  • carolyn mordecai

    That guy looks like President Clinton. Need to take another DNA test.

  • MikeofAges

    By DNA technology, it only can be proven that the children were fathered by a male Jefferson. That doesn’t mean that Thomas wasn’t the father. It merely means that you have to to go back to the kind of evidence you are citing, which can never absolutely, beyond possible doubt, prove anything. Unless you can ascertain that there was some genetic marker that by luck of the draw only Thomas inherited and show that the Hemings descendants had the same marker, you can never prove the claim. Not absolutely.

    Thomas Jefferson at various times declared an intention to follow in George Washington’s footstep and free his slaves upon his death. He did not do so. I have heard that it was not possible for him to do so under Virginia law because he was in debt. But I do not think he would have do so anyway.

    Jefferson was in many ways a very inconsistent man. He idealized the yeoman farmer as the foundation of American democracy, for example, but that was something he was far from. The yeoman was a small independent farmer who worked his own land with the help only of his family and, perhaps, hired free labor when needed.

    Jefferson, for the remainder of his life after leaving the presidency, lived beyond his means on a kind of homemade reverse mortgage and was deeply in debt when he died.

    To his credit, Jefferson did say that the institution of Black African chattel slavery would have to be ended someday. But he did nothing personally to bring that about except add in some small way to credibility of the idea.

  • Hollie Mollie

    Well since Sally Hemmings children said their mother told them as such, proves ge was the father.

    You also ignore the fact the Jefferson helped Sally’s daughters join DC society as White women. Even provided funds for ine.

    And why were only Sally’s children freed in his Will when his estate was in dire straits upon his death?

    I mean if those Children were fathered by his kinsmen, it was customary to buy Slaves you fathered at the time.

    Wouldn’t those Jefferson kinsman have bought the kids? Why free them?

    It was customary in Virginia at that time for widowers to take Slave women as Concubines. Especially those that did not remarry to protect their children’s inheritance.

    Ironically Sally Hemings was born of such a union which is why she was Thomas Jefferson’s sister in law.

  • MikeofAges

    I am aware of what you are saying, including Hemings’s own parentage. She was half-sister to the Jefferson’s deceased wife, and perhaps as little as 1/16 Black African, though likely much more. All of these facts point in the direction, quite strongly in fact. But they are not material proof beyond the possibility of doubt. The only way his parentage of Hemings’s descendants can be proved is if you exhume Thomas’s body, determine if usable DNA can be extracted, locate some genetic marker that was unique to Thomas, i.e. by luck inherited by him from his mother but not by his siblings, and prove that the Hemings descendants carry the same marker. At this moment, where the scientific proof stand is that Hemings’s male children were fathered by a male Jefferson. You cannot argue against this though you may conclude that Thomas is the father and you very well may be right.

    Now, what about the rest of things I said about Jefferson? His inconsistency. His idealization of the yeoman farmer in the context of class. What money he lived, post presidency. His ruminations about the institution of slavery.

    One thing I find interesting is that the young people, and adults, most likely to idealize Jefferson are males persons from a upper middle class background who have a high intellectual profile and an interest in liberal arts. Is that surprising? I think Jefferson is interesting too, but I don’t idealize him in the same way. You might want to know, I am an adult reentry student, a master’s degree candidate in English literature at a state college in California. I am definitely in the top half of graduate student who would be successful at one of those front-line Ph.D. granting institutions. But I am not from an upper middle class background.

    Just to break the news. men take off their pants. That’s what they do. You can’t judge them entirely by that. Or there wouldn’t be a Martin Luther King memorial in Washington either. And women, powerful and socially connected women, have affairs too. sometimes same-sex affairs. And they indulge themselves materially to an extent that calls their mental stability into question. I like to say, the reason why older women in politics don’t get in trouble the way men do is because there is no law against owning 500 purses or 2000 pairs of shoes.

  • Hollie Mollie

    Sally Hemings mother was half black. That made her 1/4 Black.

    DNA is not the only way to prove parentage. Lots of Elderly or Widower White men in Virginia often had children with Slave women.

    They almost always freed those Children in lieu of publicly claiming Paternity.

    Just like George Washington step son had a daughter with a Slave and freed her.

    I believe that the strongest indication that Sally Hemings children were Jefferson’s was the unusual attention Jefferson’s Friends paid to Heming’s children. Providing his daughter’s passage to White DC society.

    One of the sons was named Madison by James Madison’s wife. The Madison’s were very good friends of Thomas Jefferson. And they even came to see the baby when it was born.

    I doubt that had Sally had children with an ordinary person, high ranking Virginian Society types would have bothered with those Slaves.

    Of course these relationships were accepted so long as there was no public acknowledgment.

    In the case of Richard Mentor Johnson, the 9th Vice President, he made an Social Error by publicly acknowledging his Slave mistress Julia Chinn. Despite not being legally able to wed her, he lived openly with her as man and wife.

    That cost him his Political career and his children born from that Union were legally denied an inheritance upon his death, despite his Will stating otherwise.

  • MikeofAges

    I understand what you are saying. But all it proves is that some people alive today are descended from white men who had mistresses, concubines, common law wives, intermittent relationships, one timers or whatever with black women. Proving absolutely that some one person living today is descended from some one other person who existed in the past may not always be possible. It may be a reasonable inference, for example, that Prince Charles is a descendant of Prince Albert, the husband of Queen Victoria. But you cannot prove absolutely that he is not descended from some other male member of the same line of descent. Not unless you can prove that Prince Albert inherited some genetic marker that his siblings did not carry and that Prince Charles also possess it. All I am trying to do is get you to admit to validity of some simple qualitative science. If you refuse to do that, then your stories, while they may well be true, are nothing but gossip in light of present day bioscience.

    By the way, what about the other stuff about Thomas Jefferson I brought up?

  • Quanbam Tankumam

    If that is the case then. Everyone in the history of this world born before the advent of DNA cannot be proven to be descended from their forebearers.

    That is why DNA cannot be used definitively to disprove that Thomas Jefferson was not the father of Sally Hemings children.

    There is only one other Candidate who could be the father of Thomas Jefferson children. That would be Randolph Jefferson.

    But he neither lived with nor visited Thomas Jefferson when any of Sally Hemings children were born or conceived.

    He made 4 visits to the Jefferson estate in his life.

    Sally had 6 pregnancies. One of which was conceived in Paris when Randolph Jefferson was not there.

    I know you desperately want to believe men like Thomas Jefferson did not do things like that.

    But history says otherwise. These relationships were very common back then and considered normal.

    The most telling fact though was Thomas Jefferson always recorded the names of the fathers of his Slave’s children.

    Even when they were White hired hands.

    However, as was customary then, children born to the Slave Master by the Slave were never acknowledged so Sally Hemings children had no father listed in their birth records.

    You can go on and on defending Thomas Jefferson character but it won’t change the facts.

    His behavior in life and death towards the Children of Sally Hemings was commiserate to that of a Parent.

    1. Freeing only them after his death, and doing so I his Will.

    2. Assisting his daughters with the help of his powerful friends to join DC society as White women. ( A big taboo back then)

    3. Naming his Slave children after his friends

    4. Even the likeness between the Hemings Children and Jefferson’s daughters was very apparent.

    Afterall, they shared both Paternal and Maternal relatives.

    Many people in that Era remarked on this.

    5. Sally Hemings was also the “official ” hostess at Monticello.

  • MikeofAges

    “That is why DNA cannot be used definitively to disprove that Thomas Jefferson was not the father of Sally Hemings children.”

    You have a different tack here. Trying to turn my own terms around. But what assertion you are making, actually, is that the position that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Hemings’s children is an established and proven position that then has to be disproved, and that if DNA analysis cannot disprove it, then it must be accepted as true. That is not a a reason why it must be accepted as true.

    There is, in fact, no absolute reason why it has to be accepted as either true or untrue. Probably, it is true. There is a considerable circumstantial case, which you have outlined, including pointing to numerous cultural memes which show that Jefferson’s behavior was consistent with that of white men who had fathered children with black mistresses. White men who were conscientious, that is. Many, I am sure didn’t care a whit, even managed to get the mother and child or children out of the area and into some other region or state.

    Believe me, you are not going to run my mind like you do the silly middle class white people in Palo Alto. I have read your other stuff. At least I forced you to make a case instead of tossing around some disproportionate assertions. Even so, you case remains disproportionate. Not because the premise is likely wrong. But because you are trying to make an end run around some of the issues you have to account for. There is a conservative case against the idea that Jefferson was the father of Hemings’s children. They point out, there were 47 male Jeffersons, of the Jefferson y-line, extant at the time. Not just Thomas and Randolph, 47 males.

    There are other possible explanation for Thomas Jefferson’s generosity toward Hemings. These do not, by any means, prove that he was not the father of her children but they are possibilities also and represent things that also were know to happen during the lifetime of the institution.

    If you want to know, absent the availability of DNA to be tested, no, you cannot prove that anyone actually is or was descended for their presumed forebearers. Not only male forebearers, but even female. It is believed, whether it is true or not, that in the Bad Old Days in America, maybe the 1880s through the 1930s, when an affluent or wealthy woman gave birth to a defective baby, her child was switched with some other mother’s healthy infant. ight be an urban legend, or maybe not. In the past, children were adopted and not told. Babies were accidentally switched, still are. Maybe sperm donors and surrogate mothers were used and no one was told. NO, you don’t know. It is an issue even some contemporary people, including the last three presidents of the United State. That means Obama, Clinton and Bush. Also, the British crown prince and his brother. No, you don’t know.

  • Bob

    This would be pretty easy to either completely rule or or prove there’s a good possibility Bubba is the father. All Danny Lee Williams has to do, is take a DNA test on Ancestry.com or one of the other sites and see if he can find any matches on Clinton’s side. This should be pretty easy to do, as extensive family trees have been published for Bill as well as all of the other former presidents. But I guess this would be too easy and ruin a good fake story!

  • Kevin G O’Brien

    Even Snopes say it it is “unproven”. They don’t say it was wrong.

  • Loogie7

    Announced and confirmed today (October 11th, 2016) by the former editor of Star – the DNA test never happened – and the former editor of the Star who ran that false story just happened to be Bill Clinton’s college roommate. The media was in the bag then as it is now…

  • bogus

    Altman, a Clinton friend owned the Star magazine.

  • *monkey throws salad tongs*
    ?

  • m_ber

    Wrong: No DNA test was ever performed. Maybe this is why Hillary said “….it takes a village”. The DNA is out there to do the actual test using harvested results from Monica Lewinsky’s dress and imagine there is a lab busy somewhere doing this right now by both camps, each for their own reasons. Danny Williams says his mother received 7x $100 dollar bills (delivered by state troopers) every month until Bill was safely ensconced in Washington – smoking gun?? This is going to be the next debate shocker if Danny is there to meet the Clinton’s! Trump should offer him the White House stay-over that his dad never extended…and hopefully this kid can get closure and the life he deserves. A deal breaker for the Clinton’s…Bill the deadbeat dad and Hillary the plantation mistress….more past shenanigans about to shake the established liberal media to it’s foundation.

  • m_ber

    He was her only white client according to her.

  • m_ber

    He does but the story is being ignored by the mainstream media. https://twitter.com/danney_williams up and running long before the nominations had started and https://www.facebook.com/Danney-Williams-Clinton-1704956276415563/

  • Foofydo

    Once again the media covers the Clinton’s butts.

  • Bobsbride2

    The DNA test never happened but it was reported done by a tabloid funded by Bill Clinton. Isn’t that convenient? Like the fox guarding the hen house, eh? Let’s see a real DNA test for this young man done TODAY. Then we can talk…

  • Bobsbride2

    Video link of Danny William’s speaking out today. He even mentions the false DNA claims. He looks just like Bill. If he isn’t his son, it’s simple–just do a DNA test and end it. But his requests for a real DNA test continue to be ignored.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cZ0u56IuUM

  • Bobsbride2

    Actually, Danny is the better for Bill not raising him. He turned out pretty well being raised by his aunt. Good for you, Danny. Fathers like Bill Clinton are only a mix of genes and sperm donors, not always dads.

  • Claram

    Snopes is full of shit. It is owned by the DNC you cannot believe anything you read on there.

  • claram

    Really how about you enlighten us to Trumps Lies. The DNC has been digging on him to the tune of 50 millions dollars and the best they have come up with is he Talks mean and he didn’t pay enough federal taxes however, the list of Hillary Clintons lies and crimes is infinite

  • Claram

    Really? Pretty easy to do. As far as I know the only way to match a DNA test is with both parties or someone in their families DNA. Are you saying that he can get Bill Clintons DNA from ancestry.com? Do you know what would be easier. If Bill Clinton took the DNA Test. That would put the fake story to bed once and for all.

  • Claram

    Let me guess. You sit in front of your TV every night petting your cat listening to the news and saying if its on the news it must be true. Hillary is being persecuted. Donald Trump is mean LOL. DEMS

  • Claram

    And that is how you know its true.. The DEMS own the news. They are ignoring this as they are all of Hillarys crimes. If this was a fake they would run this night and day to put it to rest. The DNC and the media think the AMERICAN PEOPLE are morons. If its not on the news then it doesn’t exist.

  • Chris Padgett

    If true:
    1) why is this the only non Caucasian woman claiming to have slept with Bill
    2) why is this the only prostitute claiming to have slept with Bill
    3) there is no evidence offered other than side by side pictures, of which Danney looks more like Roger than Bill
    4) the Roger story would fit more into the narrative: he’s dabbled in cocaine and would have come across prostitutes during that time, has fathered an abandoned two other children, and his chin looks more like Danney’s- which is typically inherited from the father because it has to do with testosterone levels

    5) she claims Bill Clinton only paid $200. $200 is extremely low for bareback sex (look up information on call girls- that’s ridiculously low), and would be indicative of not being a high end call girl but a bottom of the bucket
    6) Bill Clinton had the means to get a very expensive, less frequented call girl- I’m doubting he picked up a cheap hooker off the street
    7) again, he looks more like Bill’s brother Roger (nose and chin and face width) than he does Bill, and the narrative would actually align and could probably be proven that Roger and Danney’s mother traveled in similar circles
    8) all of his evidence is hearsay, secondhand accounts. No physical evidence of anything- because if he is related to the Clinton’s, it’s through Roger Clinton who won’t be able to afford him the lifestyle he wants

  • Claram

    Lol I guess you were there.

  • Claram

    There is no DNA test. If there was proof that the rapist was not this mans Father the DNC owned media would blast this story so far out of the water you would not be able to see if from space. The fact that main stream media is ignoring it is a pretty strong indication that this may be true.

  • claram

    You said it perfectly. What really freaks me out is that no matter who your candidate is this sort of thing should scared you. The DNC owns the news and tells us what they want us to think. Yet there are still Hillary supporters. Not many granted but they still exist.

  • Claram

    hahahahahaha

  • Hollie Mollie

    The same could be said of you. You probably sit in your mother’s basement all day long hooked on Right Wing blogs telling you that Minorities not your own personal failures are to blame for your lame life.

  • Josh Tolley

    The story is also incorrect claiming that Thomas Jefferson fathered a black child. The fact is the child in question was fathered by a Jefferson, but their is no proof it was Thomas, or his brother Randolfs child. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randolph_Jefferson

  • Adrian Johnson

    11 October 2016. Infowars.com is publicising that the supposed DNA test of 1999 was bogus. Daniel Williams is asking for a genuine DNA test– if Bill Clinton has nothing to hide, he will swiftly agree to one.

  • kenny walker

    nope this is a bogus story,sorry try something else

  • Bob

    No, he wouldn’t be able to get Bill Clinton’s DNA from ancestry.com, but if Bill did have his DNA on Ancestry, FamilyTreeDNA or 23andme he would see the match. Now Bill probably doesn’t have his DNA on any of these sites and if he does, it might be anonymous, but there are millions of people that have their DNA on these sites and there’s a good chance a close relative of Bill’s might have their DNA on one of these sites and if Jr got a close match with one of Bill’s close relatives, then this would be a pretty good indication. On the other hand, if he matched closely with another paternal family that isn’t connected to Bill, this would also be an indication he wasn’t Bubba’s son. In addition, the DNA results would also give his nationalities and if he came out as 50% African, 25% English, 10% Irish, 8% Scottish and 7% German, or something close, then there’s a possibility he might be related to Bill, but if Jr. has other ethnicities, then he probably isn’t Bill’s son. Unless you got really lucky and he matched closely to a close family relative, which isn’t necessarily a long shot as when I tested I matched with several 1st cousins I didn’t know had tested, or he matches to a completely different family or gets a very different ethnicity, you might be able to disprove or prove highly probable. But I guess this kid doesn’t want to do this, because it more fun claiming you’re related to someone famous than proving you aren’t!

  • Cher

    I see you don’t show his picture. Manipulation to get others to believe you. Just show his baby picture, his toddler picture and show bill’s. If he didn’t father that boy let god strike me dead right now..lol

  • Cowboy Coder

    Can you please explain in detail how the Star, owned in 1999 when the “test” was done by Bill Clinton’s close friend and business associate Roger Altman, came to access Bill Clinton’s DNA for this test? Was it through their personal connection to him? Please also state how many and which points were tested in the DNA in order to prove a negative paternity. Thank you.

  • Cher

    He did do a dna test but the sample was tainted by the way it was obtained and it was inconclusive. They did not rule out Clinton. That’s very important to know because that means there is a chance. And really look at the kid’s picture. My god bill could have shit him out.

  • Russell

    To prove he’s Clinton’s son a refraction fragmented length polymorphism” test, or RFLP, DNA test from Clinton;s blood or other bodily fluids is needed……….Danney has an article on this on hs Facebook page.

    Note:
    I believe Clinton knows Danney is his because Danney says Clinton gave his mother $700/month child-support and also had Statetroopers bring Christmas presents to his place, but everything stopped in 1993 or so when Hillary Banished him……….I felt bad for him watching him tell his story, and he is a Black replicata of Bill Clinton.

  • Gogglezzz

    Didn’t Bill have a brother?

  • NorthC

    The first sensible comment on here. Let’s believe a crack whore so it can fit the narrative that we hate the Clintons.
    Yea, a hooker has only one white client. Makes complete since.

  • NorthC

    If someone has provided a DNA sample before for another purpose??

  • NorthC

    Lol. You’re so desperate to trash the Clintons that you’ll believe a crack whore who says she only had one white client. Right, that makes sense.

  • NorthC

    How you turn against your own when they don’t feed your narrative! Lmao! Look at the date of this publication.
    Now all of a sudden you believe a black hooker because when accusing a Democrat of fathering her child. Smh

  • Ruth Thomas

    Having his Lt. Governor do the deed gives Clinton plausible deniability (barely), so this fact certainly doesn’t get him off the hook. Wherever the truth may lie, it’s apparent that this young man sincerely believes that Bill Clinton is his father. A decent human being would submit to the test to give him a definitive answer.

  • Ruth Thomas

    Your idea of “pretty easy” sounds pretty complicated to me! It would also be further complicated by the fact that there is considerable speculation of the true biological paternity of William Jefferson Clinton himself.This young man sincerely believes that Clinton is his father; it would be “pretty easy” for the former president to agree to a paternity test so he knows the truth (whatever it may be) & deal with it.

  • Ruth Thomas

    There is considerable speculation that the former president may not be the biological son of William Jefferson Blythe, which would further complicate attempting to rule out Clinton as William’s father using the DNA of male ancestors. Whew! This is giving me a headache!

  • Ruth Thomas

    It really is sad; the young man seems to be sincere in his belief.

  • Bob

    Sorry Ruth, it is pretty easy, but maybe not to you. There’s no question about who Bill Clinton’s father was, it was William Jefferson Blythe, but unless you are also a Birther and you don’t believe it, then that’s your problem. I think maybe you’re my long lost mother, would you please perform a DNA test to confirm? You know the truth and you should deal with it!

  • MikeofAges

    I tend to think he is William Blythe’s son. I have heard the argument that Blythe might have been ill and unable to father a child. I don’t believe that. He was only 26 years old when he died, in a single-vehicle accident while intoxicated. Usually 26-year-old males are able to perform regardless of health issues or alcoholism. Drug use, particularly opiates, could leave even a young man impotent. But opiates were not the drug of choice in the Ozarks.

    As noted, questions exist about the ancestry of the last three presidents, Obama, G.W. Bush and Clinton. May or may not be valid, but surprisingly, the strongest case is as regards who G.W. Bush’s maternal grandfather actually was. There is a surprising candidate for the post!

  • Randy

    Danny should have his and his children’s DNA tested by ancestry.com or my 23 DNA or any other DNA test site and see if he is related to the Clinton family. It’s like 99 bucks for these test. That would definitely help point The finger in the right direction

  • Cher

    You think that scum wants to know? He’s a moron too. And you know what’s really sad in this country? The fact this young man’s mother and clinton’s relationship started when he was on a jog and ran into her selling herself on the street. He did her in the bushes first time. He liked it so he kept finding her. This is a president and soon to be first lady. This is our country.

  • Jay V Of Considerable Influenc

    I don’t disagree with anything you say…unfortunately, though, you appear to be a Patriots fan, which makes you bigger scum than both Clintons and Trump put together.

  • Anna

    He is ashamed because this young man is black ,but yet Hillary is pretending to be for blacks until AA wake up and realize that Trump will make a change why is CNN working overtimes with all these women making false claims because they know the American people will trail them these stories are false.Why want they interview the widows of Benghazi ,MONICA Lewinsky the woman that say he raped them .Billy Busch

  • Cher

    he does but he’s a drunk. don’t even know where he is.

  • Scott

    Never took DNA TEST!

  • Lauralee O’Meara
  • Lauralee O’Meara

    that blog has been removed

  • ROSLYN STORMS

    he looks like clinton

  • Elaine Thomas
  • Elaine Thomas

    If Danney Williams claim is true, what has been done about it.. Why aren’t they rich for being paid off not to talk??
    Research does keep coming up that Chelsea is Webb Hubbell’s biological father.. One idiot even has his camera going when he walks up to her during a book signing asking “Hi, Chelsea, did your mother ever tell you….” didn’t want to hear the rest.. http://www.govtslaves.info/the-clintons-greatest-shame…/

  • krisatkins

    This is a lie. There was no test. Who checks the liberal fact checkers?

  • inurmind

    The story is not bogus! It seem people are trying to regenerate this story for political interest!!!!

  • Donegalian

    He turned out well? He’s a convicted felon who fathered a rake of kids before he even reached 21.

  • Rob

    Well let’s ask this question why don’t you see Danney’s Story in the main stream media. Their are and have been witness’s to his story. The BS in the STAR was done by the owner, a long time Clinton backer. No record of an actual paternity DNA test exists. Put the young man on CNN. CNN is knocking out the airwaves on bogus accusations about Trump. Ask the witness that was on the flight when she claimed all this happened. Her story is from a case earlier this year and bogus. Wiki Leaks has exposed collusion and corruption with the DNC, the State Dept, the Attorney General, and the White House. Do you see that reported? Clinton’s son reaches out for answers, but racial bigotry denies him?

  • Rob

    Check out “Banished” the story of Danney Williams. Do a search and you can find it. If true, and witness’s can collaborate his story it’s a Sad story of a boy who grew up in poverty while his father and step mother occupied the White House. If true, racial bigotry! African Americans should demand an honest Paternity DNA test. Talk about social justice needing a voice!

  • Rob

    Ask Hillary what her reaction was when Danney’s aunt took him to the governors mansion in Arkansas as a little boy? I guess all Black Lives Don’t matter if this story is true? At least not to the Clinton’s! Sounds like plantation owners selling off their children to hide their actions.
    Danney Williams and his mother should have a seat in the family area at the Debate in Las Vegas. He should get to ask Hillary a tough question, why?

  • Rob

    This isn’t about Danney’s history good or bad. He was like so many impoverished kids with no opportunity. And to think is father may have been the leader of the free world!

  • Cher

    Seriously. his nose bump, his teeth, his eyes…freakin identical. People today are becoming so weird. They see things right in front of them and deny it.

  • Ruth Thomas

    You make a lot of assumptions. I don’t have an opinion on who the former president’s biological father was, and really don’t care. I merely mentioned that there are questions surrounding his paternity.

  • Bob

    The only place Bill Clinton’s father is questioned is on crazy right wing websites and radio! Even if his father was in question, you’d be able to look for links to Bill’s mother’s family. Once again, if this kid was really his son, they’d be plenty of ways to confirm, without Bill giving any DNA. I’m sure your hero Trump wouldn’t do a DNA test for some random crazy person!

  • ansonia

    If it’s true Clinton didn’t father this young man who looks so much like him, then why isn’t he so eager to end the talk that he’s taking a DNA test?
    Bill Clinton certainly looks like he’s avoiding taking that test.

  • Who cares. It was consensual sex. All of Bill’s infidelities were consensual. Bill lied about them to protect his reputation. Who wouldn’t? He had a family and a career. The homewreckers took advantage of Bill and received every drop of money they could because, unlike Trump, Bill didn’t counter sue. He didn’t even fight.
    Who cares if 1,000 desperate slags slept with him. I sure don’t. It doesn’t make him a rapist. He didn’t set out to hurt people or call them names like Trump.

  • Maria?

    Get a DNA test today, untainted please.

  • Tracey Reitterer

    Christopher Ruddy also wrote a book on Vince Foster’s death, back when he had some integrity as a journalist. Then he went over to the dark side & became a Democrapper/Hillary supporter. I’m sure Foster is spinning in his grave.

  • MikeofAges

    But you can prove consanguinity with paternal or maternal Clinton relatives, if these would cooperate by taking the test. This would strengthen the circumstantial case.

  • Art Jackson

    People see what they want to see. I don;t find any particular resemblence. Put another way, his facial characteristics make him “look like” a number of adult men.

  • ItsJo

    ALWAYS!

  • cj10

    Looks like Trevor Noah to me. OMG maybe Trevor is also Bill Clinton’s son!!!.

  • Koby333

    The kid (30 + yrs old) isn’t trolling? Oh, pshaw! Glad that was taken care of – no DNA match. Oh, really? Where did that crawl out of? Even if there was even the remotest chance of a match – would this dishonorable piece of (what?) get the nerve to wait 30 years to question the authenticity of what his MAMA told him? HIs mama may need some psychological care, but thankfully, no DNA match. HOW MUCH DID THEY RECEIVE FROM DONNIE-BOY FOR PITCHING THAT STORY?

  • Cher

    No resemblance…LOL At least lie a little like maybe just his nose? Denial runs deep when you totally deny. wow.

  • Cindy Bill

    They used the DNA test he submitted for the Starr Investigation and compared that to Danney Williams DNA. No match, not even close so they dropped the story.

  • Art Jackson

    By that standard I can find several thousand people who must be your children in about 2 weeks time merely by looking at scads of photographs for slight resemblence between one facial feature of theirs and the same of yours. Equally as absurd is the fact that by that standard people who ARE related to each other must share physical characteristics, which leaves the large number of people who do not out in the cold.

  • Art Jackson

    ROTFL! nice one! ;D

  • Gail

    Star? A tabloid paper?
    You are too stupid.
    I was watching this unfold back in the day.
    There was no dna testing! Even if they did we along with Daniel will never get the truth cuz we are dealing with the Korrupt Klinton Klan! Nothing is out off their reach!
    Daniel is better off without the
    Korrupt Klinton Klan !

  • Cher

    yes but can they say they had a prostitute mother who had sex with bill clinton?

  • Leah

    I thought this was Accuracy in media! Can’t trust any source now? Just pass on a trash publication’s story?

  • Susan

    BULLSHIT story. DNA was not done on full spectrum. It didn’t deny the possibility..sorry
    NOT SORRY

  • Susan

    Of course you don’t. And I’m sure you think the republicans are bullying Hillary too

  • T

    If he didn’t take a DNA test how can you state Clinton is not the father? I mean he may well not be but no one knows for sure.

  • Sean Christian Homes

    And can you trust the DNA test if there is one? You think the Clinton’s will let an accurate one be done? They cheat on everything. They cheat in debates. They fix elections. Hillary on record talking about Palestine elections, “if we have an election there, we better make sure who will win” .. Look it up, it’s audio.
    They are entirely corrupt. Worse than you can imagine. The foundation collected money for Haiti hurricane victims and used it to build a textile factory for a donor on the other side of the island.
    Who exactly are the Clinton voters? And if they do vote for those idiots, is it for their public or private opinions? Idiot Clinton voters.

  • davehogue

    Where did they get a sample of Clinton’hair, fluids or whatever to do the test? Was the test done by a legitimate lab?

  • Ya Ya

    I can’t trust this article. For one, there’s way too many grammatical errors, and there has never been a DNA test. Look up Danney Williams YouTube videos, etc. Does anyone really believe the Clintons would allow this to come out?

  • Ah Dee

    AIM doesn’t care this is a propaganda war. The very nature of this site is to twist stories to fit a particular narrative.

  • Ah Dee

    You know this story is true or the Clintons would sue. They can’t sue, as it may allow a judge to force a paternity test.

  • Est Ban

    You need to provide dates and references for Sally’s European pregnancy. Since there is no living lineage ever recorded from this pregnancy you are making the assumption that this pregnancy resulted from intercourse with T. Jefferson. As I noted before there is no evidence. The story was propagated for the convenience of the living (i.e. Bill Clinton). That is the how history works it is rewritten for the convenience of the living.

  • Hollie Mollie

    Well since the baby was still born a few weeks after TJ came back from Paris, why would there be a record. Contemporary sources including her son Madison state that.

    Actually there was plenty of evidence that TJ was Sally Hemings lover. For one, all her sons looked like him. Many people who visited Montecito attested to that.

    Sally Hemings children were the only ones who were freed. Jefferson’s estate was HEAVILY IN DEBT, yet the only Slaves freed were Sally Hemings children.

    Two of Hemings daughters were aided by Jefferson to enter into DC society as White women.

    TJ friends showed exceptional attention to the Hemings children. Most notably the Madisons who knew Sally from her time in Paris.

    In fact Sally Hemings son Madison was named after James Madison by Madison’s wife himself.

    Both the Hemings sons changed their last names to Jefferson after they were freed. Under no obligation to do so.

    Madison even gavean interview to an Ohio paper where they settled about their lives at Montecito. He claimed all of Sally Hemings children had the same father. Thomas Jefferson.

    This was well known even in TJ times. Many of TJ fellow Politicians reported it. It was an open secret.

    It was customary in Virginia for widowed Slave owners to take a slave concubine so as not to minimize the Estate of surviving children.

    Hemings herself was a product of sucha Union being Martha Jefferson’s half sibling.

    So why is it unfathomable to believe that Thomas Jefferson wouldn’t do that?

    His wife died when he was in his early 40s at the Prime of his life. He never remarried either.

    And the DNA tests prove that Jefferson’s male lineage was in his son’s descendants Eston.

    Slave owners almost always freed their biracial children.

    He would never have freed his nephews or brothers children.

    They would have had to buy them from the Jefferson estate.

    Octoon children like the Hemings were worth 3 times a black slave especially the females who were coveted as Concubines for White Slave owners.

    I doubt all those Mulatto children produced during Slave times were conjured up for the convenience of anything.

    Slave master relationships happened,were common and this practice was well documented at that time. Even newspapers at that time insinuated that the Hemings children belonged to Jefferson.

  • Grabitz

    I don’t know but I feel Bill would have been happier in his life if he married the black lady but he married the white woman that doesn’t care who he has sex with . Bills desires rule him Hillary uses him and they all get paid. Bills son turned out to be a good man so all is good. I at least hope Bill leaves his grand kids something when he dies

  • Est Ban

    Dear Hollie:
    There might be accounts of TJ being Sally’s lover, but this is not proof. Contrary to what was stated the DNA could never prove it. Likewise similarities in facial form could not prove it, especially not written accounts that Sally’s offspring looked like TJ since it would be expected that all close relatives of TJ would also look like TJ and father offspring that looked like TJ. In other words there is no proof TJ was the father. There is only claims that have been embellished so Bill Clinton’s unbridled licentiousness and his fathering of a black child would not look as bad. Finally you must be aware that Sally Hemings was supposedly the half sister of TJ;s deceased. wife. In this regard it would be expected that her children and also her would be freed. All the evidence you present is innuendo but not proof.

  • Miranda Lee

    DNA did prove that Sally Hemings children were fathered by someone in TJ male line. Jefferson had only ONE brother. That brother did not live with Sally Hemings or TJ. He lived elsewhere. His Nephew Carr was not of Jefferson’s male line nor did he live with TJ. The male line was looked at to exclude the biological relationship between Sally and Martha.

    So how did Sally Hemings get pregnant again in Paris? Neither Jefferson’s brother nor his nephew were there.

    Sally Hemings siblings who were also Martha Jefferson’s Half Siblings were not freed. Their children too were not freed. Not even Sally Hemings was freed in Jeffersons Will. It was Jeffersons daughter who freed her. Only Sally Hemings children were freed. Two of her daughters were freed when Jefferson was alive.

    The Parentage of Sally Hemings children was talked about even when Jefferson was President. It’s not a recent issue.

    Besides Madison Hemings and his brother Eston Hemings both changed their last names to Jefferson.

    Madison wrote in his memoirs in an Ohio newspaper that Sally Hemings told him that TJ was the only father to her children.

    So you accept that Sally Hemings father was Martha Jefferson’s half sister yet you can’t accept that Hemings children were fathered by Jefferson.

    It was common in Virginia back then for Widowers to take Slaves as Concubines especially those whose wives died young and they did not remarry like TJ and his Father in Law.

  • Miranda Lee

    No but the people who were recorded these events. Do you ever even read historical accounts that don’t fall in line with your racist fantasies?

  • Miranda Lee

    Well that boy could’ve gone to court 2 decades ago and demanded a DNA test for paternity purposes when he was a minor. I wonder why his broke mama didn’t. Instead she decided to sell her story to the Tabloids. Shouldn’t forcing Clinton to legally take responsibility for his seed been the priority not Tabloid cash?

  • Miranda Lee

    Well why didn’t the boy and his mama utilize the Court system 2 decades ago to establish paternity? They still haven’t nor do they look like they are in any hurry to go the legal route.

  • Miranda Lee

    Yes because a Prostitute who was a drug addict and did time is a reliable witness. She also stated she met Clinton while he was jogging through the Ghetto without his body guards, when he was Governor.

  • Miranda Lee

    Why haven’t this boy and his mama forced Clinton to do so through the Court system ever since the boy was a minor?

  • Miranda Lee

    But Thomas Jefferson only had one brother who didn’t live with him. Neither did his nephew.

  • Miranda Lee

    He isn’t Bill’s son. That Black lady is a well known liar and grinder. How come she didn’t go to the courts to establish paternity when the boy was a minor decades ago?

  • Miranda Lee

    Question is why hasn’t this boy and his mother forced Clinton to court to take a DNA test. Are they afraid the Tabloid money will run out?

  • Miranda Lee

    They can get it. They should have gone a decade ago to the Courts when the boy was a minor and forced a DNA test.

    They chose not too. Tabloid money will disappear once their scam is discovered.

  • Miranda Lee

    He won’t take the test. I think by now if he was really the spawn of Clinton his mother would have made a beeline for the Court system for Child support a long time ago.
    They choose not to put this matter to rest because people like you will buy the Tabloid when they sell their story every time a Clinton runs.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well only Sally lived with Jefferson. Randolph didn’t. Wikipedia is an unreliable source since anyone with an email address can edit it.

    And TJ freed Sally Hemings children. Those were the only people freed from his broke estate at his death.
    None of them went to live with Randolph after they were freed.

    Sally Hemings was Martha Jefferson’s younger half sister.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well Danny Williams mother could’ve forced Clinton to take a DNA test to establish paternity and for Child support.

    Have you dared to ask yourself why she has never bothered to do this.

    Why Danny has never bothered to use the Court system ?

  • Miranda Lee

    How are you certain Danny is the son of Bill Clinton if no DNA test has ever been done?

  • Miranda Lee

    Yet he and his mother choose not to go to court to force a Paternity test.
    She could’ve sued Clinton for Child support but she never did. Yet she is all too eager to take money from Tabloids.

  • Miranda Lee

    Why? Danny’s mother could’ve forced a Paternity test when he was a minor to collect child support.
    But their priority has always been cash from the Tabloids.

  • Miranda Lee

    Danny and his mother also avoiding taking that test too. I mean why didn’t she file when he was a minor to receive Child support?

    But I am guessing that would end their Tabloid gravy train.

  • Miranda Lee

    Why should AA demand an honest Paternity test?
    Danny and his mother could’ve filed Child support and Paternity when the boy was a Minor. The Courts would’ve done the DNA test.

    The question is, why hasn’t this clown and his mother done this.

    AA are famous for collecting child support checks.

  • Miranda Lee

    No he is not. AA are awake. We know damn straight well that AA woman would not let free money in Child support go to waste.

    If this really was his kid this lady would’ve filed Paternity and Child support back in the 90s.

    Then she would’ve used that money to support her drug habit.

  • Miranda Lee

    And you have cataracts. No AA woman would’ve left a lucrative Child support deal to go to waste. Especially one with a drug habit. I am black, I know the name of the game.

    She know it’s not his but she making money selling this story.
    AAs know this.

  • No Money Down

    That my dear Miranda is the $64,000.00 Question. I still waiting for the DNA test.

  • Miranda Lee

    It will be a long wait. It is not in the best interest of Danny and his mother’s pockets. In the meantime, every 4 years they will appear in the public eye selling their tale of woe to Tabloids which gullible Clinton haters will buy.

    Like those fake heirs to the British throne that pop up from time to time.

  • Miranda Lee

    And how many prostitutes are honest?

  • No Money Down

    Fake news is all the rage these days, maybe the Russians can fake some of Clinton’s DNA for Danny.

  • Miranda Lee

    And why would Danny want that? Conspiracy theories sell more than actual facts.

    Grainy UFO and Bigfoot photos, shaky Grassy Knoll footage all that is priceless compared to the truth.

  • No Money Down

    Ask Danny Miranda, I don’t worry about trivial events like this.

  • Miranda Lee

    But you waiting on that DNA test. Smdh.

  • MikeofAges

    Historians say 47 male Jefferson existed at the time. Unless you can determine that Thomas possessed some particular genetic marker his kin did not, and that is possible, you cannot really prove which male Jefferson was founder of the line.

    The truth is, you do not know absolutely what anyone’s origins are. The descent of some lines of European peerage and royalty is in dispute, and these are people who kept genealogical records going way back. No, you don’t know. Highly suspect, but you don’t know.

  • ansonia

    Maybe she didn’t want the hush money to end. Danny claims they got generous amounts of money, he thinks, from the Clintons, for a few years.

  • No Money Down

    Are you still upset The Donald won Miranda? You’ll sleep better at night if you let it go, that is the difference in worrying and waiting.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well would all 47 Male Jeffersons have the same DNA ? NO! Only identical twins have the same DNA. The test only focused on Easton Hemings descendants and those of The Jefferson brothers.
    No Historian has ever said anything of the sort. That is just chit racist White people make up.
    Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings children.
    He was the only one of his close family who lived with her.
    He was the only one living with her in Paris when she first got pregnant.
    He freed all her surviving children and helped 2 of her daughters to join DC society as White women.

    Madison and Easton Hemings confirmed he was their father posthumously and even changed their last names to Jefferson.

    And you know nothing about DNA or History, and that is the truth.

    The DNA evidence concluded only one of 2 people could be the father of Sally Hemings children.

    Thomas or Randolph Jefferson.

    This 47 male is just a lie racists have made up.

  • Miranda Lee

    Not as upset as you are waiting for Bill Clinton to agree to a DNA result. You’ll sleep better at night if you let it go, that is the difference in worrying and waiting.

  • Miranda Lee

    Really he got generous amounts. According to Danny he only got $200.
    And him and his mother been arrested MULTIPLE TIMES for criminal activity. Clearly that hush money you claim exist ain’t that much otherwise his mother wouldn’t be a $2 Ghetto heaux to this day.

  • MikeofAges

    You don’t know DNA. The Y-line can be identified. What we do not know is what unique genetic marker Thomas Jefferson had. if any. Sometimes, by luck of the draw, an offspring will inherit some gene from one parent which the other siblings or relatives do not carry. If the 47 males Jeffersons all were descended from the same male forebearer then they carry the same Y chromosome. And that’s not “just a lie the racists have made up.”

    Very likely, Thomas Jefferson did father children with Sally Hemmings. But it cannot be proven to an absolute certainty. All that is proven is that the Hemmings descendants are descended from some male Jefferson.

    The truth is, we cannot prove anyone’s ancestry with an absolute certainty. There are a variety of reasons, including but not limited to adoptions no one was told about from either relatives or non-related persons, the possibility of a child being fathered by a male relative or non-related person other than the presumed father, and even the possibility of an infant being either accidentally or deliberately switched after birth.

    I have heard it alleged, for example, that in the era from the late 1800’s to the World War II, when an affluent or wealthy couple gave birth to a defective or stillborn infant, they sometime had the their infant switched with a healthy infant from a poorer woman. I have no idea how often this happened, probably not very often, but I don’t doubt that it did at least a few times.

    No, we do not know the true ancestry of anyone in the past. Or of many people in the present either. People may not want to accept that, but it is true.

  • Rob

    Miranda, if you researched the story the mother was a drug addict prostitution who recieved $700 a month from Bill Clinton. About the time the Clinton’s made it to the White House, the mother is incarcerated and the boy gets thrown in foster care. The payments stopped. There are folks who witnessed the delivery of money and the affair. Why not do a paternity test. Bill Clinton has quite a history of adultry. The entire story does not sound that far fetched. There’s even reports of Arkansas. state troopers that delivered the money and transported Clinton for visits with the mother. Who knows, a paternity test would definitely tell the story?

  • No Money Down

    I sleep just fine and have for many years.

    Oscar Wilde said it best, “Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness.”

    Have a great day Miranda, I’ve enjoyed our conversation.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well Sally Hemings children were not adopted or switched out. By all accounts they were healthy.

    But you and all Apologists need to ask yourself this:

    1. Why did TJ specifically state in his Will that Sally Hemings children be freed? Not even Sally was freed in his Will.

    2. Why did TJ help 2 of Sally Hemings daughters join DC society as White women?

    3. How come none of the other Hemings afforded that luxury?

    4. Was it uncommon for widowed Slave owners to take Slaves as concubines in VA at that time in lieu of remarriage?

    5. Why don’t TJ estate allow his body to be exhumed and tested to put this to rest once and for all?

  • MikeofAges

    You are shifting the context around I brought up the issue of infants being switched or adopted infants not being told they were adopted as an example of one of the reasons why people cannot know their ancestry for certain. I don’t think this issue has anything to do with Sally Hemmings and her children.

    Jefferson at the time of his death may not have been able to free his slaves although he apparently sometime expressed the desire to follow in Washington’s footsteps in that matter. Jefferson lived on a kind of homemade reverse mortgage over the last years of his life and was deeply in debt when he died. Under Virginia law, persons who were in debt apparently were not legally allowed to free slaves. Slaves were chattel, personal property, that is to say.

    Otherwise, all of what you say is absolutely true. Just that it does not constitute proof of anything, it only establishes a strong likelihood. Other people have presented different cases. I am not sure how credible they are.

    Exhuming Thomas Jefferson’s body might or not yield any useful information. I for one would like to know, but there might not be any genetic marker unique to Thomas that also could identified in the Hemmings descendants. We already know that at least some of Hemmings’s children were descended from a male Jefferson.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well if Jefferson was legally in debt at his death how come he freed Sally Hemings children if he was not able to do so? Why did his daughter Martha free Sally subsequently?

    All the other Hemings were sold to pay the Estate debts. Why were Sally and her children spared ?

    Not only that, Sally’s daughters entered DC society long before Jefferson was in debt. And he helped them do it.

    People who present different cases always ignore the points I raised above.

    They also ignore the fact that many Slave owners had children with Slaves. And in some cases, they freed those slaves. Just like Martha Washington’s grandson. He freed his Slave child and built her a home.

    Exhuming TJ body is the only way to find a unique genetic marker. DNA testing has improved significantly in the last decade.

    Now they are even testing remains thousands of years old. Kennewick man and Anzick child are such examples.

    The only reason they don’t want to do the testing is it will embarrass TJ.

    I know in the future that test will be done and all doubt will be laid to rest.
    What was done in secret will be exposed for all the world to see.

  • MikeofAges

    I don’t know the totality of the legal situation. I have only seen it stated that Jefferson could not sell his chattel. Why don’t you do the research?

  • Miranda Lee

    Well how about you do some research and find out the totality of the situation. Take your own advice.

    Jefferson’s Will is in the Museum of Monticello. I have been there maybe you should too.

    Jefferson didn’t sell his Slave born Chattel. Unfortunately for Sally she was to be auctioned off but Martha Jefferson saved her.

  • MikeofAges

    You’re not king of the mountain, but that’s what you are playing. You can’t simply claim that a certain position is the default position and demand that other people then “prove” to your satisfaction that the perceived “default” position is incorrect.

    The default position in this matter is “probably, but don’t know.” I don’t know for sure, and I don’t claim to. Even if DNA studies were performed on all recoverable remains and on all living descendants, a unique genetic marker which definitively connected Thomas Jefferson or any other person to the Hemings descendants might not be found.

    Families often are adverse to have to having their forebearers exhumed. These reasons sometimes are just visceral, not political. I personally think that when reasons of state are involved, it should be able to be done if there are forensic reasons regardless of the sentiments of the family. That certainly would apply to Texas Gov. John Connally, who was wounded in the Kennedy Assassination. Even if there was such a legal doctrine, I don’t know whether it would apply to Jefferson though in what was essentially a personal matter.

    What I was suggesting is that you research what the totality of the legal situation was and present what you found. My understanding, as stated, was that because of his debts, he could not free his chattel.

    Jefferson had many inconsistencies. One of them was his idealization of the yeoman farmer. The yeoman was a free farmer who worked his own land only with the assistance of his family and hired free labor, if necessary.

    Jefferson, himself, was the antithesis of the yeoman, a creature of the Virginia aristocracy whose existence was made possible by chattel slavery and the plantation system, and the domination of the political system by the elite planters.

    Study Jefferson enough, and it will make you appreciate the Andrew Jackson revolution after all. We are going through something like that right now though no one seems to notice. Both Barack Obama and Donald Trump were elected based on populist campaign with similar templates, one conservative, one liberal. Shocking but true. Bernie Sanders represented another departure which gained significant support. The establishmentarian Hillary Clinton meanwhile lost out twice.

    Look at the departure. First president of Black African descent. First black First Lady. President of Germanic descent rather than British. Trump’s mother was Scottish but not closely related to the English aristocracy. His wife was born in Southeastern Europe, also a departure. Sometimes the medium is the message.

    As I see the process we are going through, the American presidency is being removed from the control of the British-descended element in the American population. I doubt we will see another president entirely of British descent, with his or her connections to British royalty and peerage duly noted.

  • Miranda Lee

    The topic is Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings. Stick to it. Your deflections will not work with me.

    If Jefferson could not free his Chattel, why were Sally Hemings and her children freed?

    It is even stated in his WILL which is a available for the Public to view in Monticello.

    You don’t need a unique DNA marker to definitively prove Paternity.

    Because a Child inherits half of each parents DNA.

    Only identical Twins have the same DNA. Siblings don’t. That is why DNA tests can rule out a Parent’s siblings.

    Thomas Jefferson was not an identical twins.

    Stick to the topic at hand.

  • MikeofAges

    Yes you do need unique DNA markers to prove paternity. Otherwise, all you have is the Y-haplogroup which only proves that the individual is descended from some male of that Y-haplogroup. In the case of a femake offspring, there is no Y from the male and the case is proven entirely by genetic markers. We already know that Hemings’s male descendants are descended from some male Jefferson. That’s what started this discussion.

    What deflection?

  • Miranda Lee

    No you don’t if you have a father and mother. I am a Social worker by profession. I once needed to have paternity test done on a child who may have been fathered by two males who were both cousins. Despite the close relations, the paternity test ruled out one man entirely not to be the father, the other was.

    Each human believe it or not has a UNIQUE DNA SIGNATURE.
    This is why Forensics and Paternity Experts can rule out Close family members.

    Did you know that or you think they make that up in the Court system?

    All theh would need to prove parternity is Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson DNA.

    That is all. Unique Genetic markers are only used to show what Region a person is from like when you take those Ancestry DNA tests or when they tested Kennewick Man and Anzick child to prove they were not European.

    I am glad you are sticking to topic.

  • MikeofAges

    Yes, this works because of unique genetic markers. If both the cousins were descended from the same grandfather through their fathers, they would be in the same Y-haplogroup.

    That is exactly the point I am making. All you can say right now certainty is that Sally Hemings bore a child or multiple children fathered by a male Jefferson. Unless you can determine what genetic markers were unique to Thomas and show that the Hemings descendants also carried them, you cannot prove to beyond rational doubt that Thomas the the father.

    The only way you can do that is through genetic studies than include both Thomas and other male Jeffersons. Otherwise, you would need the DNA of both Thomas and possible offspring through Hemings. The burial place of the the Hemings children might not even be known. There might not be recoverable DNA available anyway.

    The circumstantial case that Thomas was the father of at some the Hemings children is pretty strong. But the conclusive proof is not yet available. Voluntary DNA studies were participated in by both Jefferson and Hemings descendants. All they prove was that certain Hemings descendants were descended from a male Jefferson. Right now, that is the state of the material evidence.

    Tell me where you think I went off topic. I brought up Gov. Connally to illustrate an applicable principle. That is not going off topic. If you have a problem with abstraction, your problem, not mine.

  • Miranda Lee

    It is going off topic talking about President Obama and Donald Trump. What has that got to do with this.

    Sally Hemings and her 2 sons Madison and Eston were buried in Ohio where they settled after leaving Monticello as freedman. Not only that, Sally Hemings children who did not survive childhood were buried in the Cemetery at Monticello. Including the one who was conceived in Paris when Sally was 14 and Thomas Jefferson was the only male Jefferson there as his time as the US Ambassador to France. The baby was miscarried after the passage home. Sally Hemings and her brother had attempted to seek French citizenship to be free but TJ convinced them otherwise and promised that any Children Sally had would be freed as a result and the brother would be freed after a few years of work. Sallys’ brother committed suicide a few years later.

    This was the account Madison and Eston gave an Ohio newspaper after they were freed.

  • MikeofAges

    Some new information. But you still have to dig up everyone. Sorry about that.

  • Miranda Lee

    No you don’t have to dig everyone for a paternity test. You think when they do a Paternity test, they test all Male relatives of a potential father? NOPE!

    All they need to do is dig up TJ, SH, and her two boys. If the DNA match comes back 99% then TJ is the father, in my Maury voice.

    Why? Because DNA signatures are unique to every individual except Identical Twins and everyone knows TJ did not have an identical twin.

    Keep up with the times, DNA one.

  • MikeofAges

    You are correct. If you can locate the graves of Hemings’s children, obtain recoverable DNA, and exhume Thomas and obtain recoverable DNA, then you can prove paternity. If you are dealing with more remote descendants, you may need to determine what genetic markers are unique to Thomas. But no matter what you do, unless you can exhume Thomas and recover DNA you are stuck with the case based on historical evidence, which is what you present. Again, the only available scientific proof is that there are Hemings descendants descended from some male Jefferson, no determination of which one.

    I want proof not because I am skeptical of the idea, but because I favor restraint. Things “everyone” has long believed have been proven wrong. My answer is, “Much circumstantial evidence, but I don’t know.”

  • Miranda Lee

    If that is the case then no historical figure can truly prove their parentage. Proven by what those things that were long believed?

    Has there been any evidence to suggest anyone other than Jefferson could have fathered all 6 of Sally Hemings children?

    The answer is no. I believe TJ actions on the matter prove he is the father.

    No Slave owner in debt went to great lengths to show affections to slaves unless they were their children.

    Slave children born to Masters was common. The irony is you accept Sally Hemings was Martha Jeffersons half sister yet you can’t accept Thomas Jefferson was the father of her children.

    TJ was a man of his time. That is how White maless in the South rolled.

    The few who tried to legitimize their Slave children like the 9th Vice President Richard Mentor Johnston, we’re severely ostracized by the Society.

    So they quietly did what they could to help them like TJ did.

  • MikeofAges

    Again, you’re back to circumstantial evidence. The evidence is strong, but not absolute. That is my issue. I am not for the sake of conversation assume anything about this topic or any other. No, we don’t know everything about our own or other people’s past. Nor can we, for reasons I have already covered, starting with the simple fact that people were adopted and never told or infants were accidentally or deliberately switched at birth. Also the simple fact that a woman might have had voluntary or involuntary relations with a man other than her husband or known partner. All possible.

  • Miranda Lee

    This isn’t Circumstantial evidence. It is actual historical facts. Thomas Jefferson did free the Hemings children. He did help the daughters join the DC society as White women. The Hemings children looked like his daughter Martha not Mary who looked like her mum. This was remarked on by many people in his time, and newspaper article were written about it. Master Slave relationships were very common. Sally Hemings got pregnant in Paris when no other Jefferson other than Thomas was there. Hemings sins testified Thomas Jefferson was their father. They even changed their last names to Jefferson. With one serving in the Colored Brigade during the Civil War as a Jefferson.

  • Miranda Lee

    I suggest you read, Life among the Lowly, No. 1,” Pike County (Ohio) Republican, March 13, 1873.

    This is Madison Hemings memoirs of his life. He even notes Sally Hemings was Thomas Jefferson personal Housekeeper.

    A euphemism back then for a Slave concubine.

  • MikeofAges

    I am aware of all of these things. That is why I said the circumstantial case is very strong. But scientific evidence is needed to make it conclusive. While we’re at, it might be nice to have some scientific evidence proving that Hemings was the half-sister of Jefferson’s deceased wife. If Jefferson and Hemings had a long term relationship as described I would not use the term “concubine”. “Concubine” is a nice ten-dollar word with a lot emotional connotations attached to it. Perhaps it also has a legal meaning, but I would call her, then, a domestic partner or common law wife.

    Reportedly, Hemings closely resembled Jefferson’s late wife. Possibly, her biracial mother was less than one-half of Black African descent. That, too, is argued.

    Absent a DNA sample from Thomas himself, it will never be possible to absolutely prove anything. Not absolutely. There is a case against Jefferson being the father of Hemings’s children, put forward by some conservative historians. That is why I am not going to sign on to the idea. Only the pressure created by persistent doubt can force the Jefferson heirs to cooperate in developing the scientific evidence necessary to determine the fact. Living people have cooperated, but the case can only be proven by digging up the dead. People don’t like that.

  • Miranda Lee

    Scientific evidence is not necessary to prove conclusively that one is a parent. Elizabeth the 1 was the child of Henry VIII. In all aspects despite doubts about her parentage by Henry the VIIII. However, she was crowned queen, why? Because she resembled her father very much.

    Sally Hemings and Martha Jefferson beared a striking resemblance. The children of Sally Hemings looked like Thomas Jefferson and his daughter Martha. Martha Wayles Jefferson looked like her father.

    You do forget that Parents and Children look alike.

    It is this fact that made many visitors to Monticello conclude that Thomas Jefferson was the father of Sally Hemings children.

    Even James Madison’s wife suspected that. She went out of her way to befriend Sally a Slave, and insisted on having the right to name her son Madison.

    That in and of itself is proof.

    There was no marriage between Slaves and Masters. Richard Mentor Johnston the 9th Vice President tried to marry a Slave with disastrous consequences.

    I doubt Sally Hemings and Thomas Jefferson relationship was consensual. It began when Sally was a teenager and Thomas was in his 40s.

    Most consensual Slave Master relationship often had the Slave owner freeing both Slave and children.

  • MikeofAges

    I don’t think it is useful to continue this discussion. The case remains circumstantial. Also, no proof that the presumed relationship between Thomas and Hemings began when she was a teenager. Hemings accompanied the Jeffersons to Paris to serve as a maid to Jefferson’s daughter. If Hemings got pregnant while in France, well, it could been anyone. Yes, Thomas possibly. But it could have been another grown man. Or just a random youth who charmed her. We’ll never know.

    I’m done with this. I don’t think you quite get the point of why someone would want scientific proof.

  • Miranda Lee

    Wel, how could just anyone have impregnated Sally Hemings in Paris when she was a Slave and caretaker to Thomas Jefferson daughter Mary? Only Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings brother were the only males who lived in that house.

    James Madison wife who visited them commented so in her letters which are at the Smithsonian. There was no random youth in Paris.

    This need to vilify the character of the victim in order to sanitize the reputation of the Criminal is very common in Western European culture.

    Yes that Thomas Jefferson would invest time and energy in the children of a Slave by some RANDOM YOUTH.

    Keep thinking that. I know it pains you but those Founding Fathers were not Saints.

    A lot of them did things that back then were considered normal but now ashame Society because of changing norms.

    Thomas Jefferson own behavior towards Sally Hemings children proved he was their father.

    Whether you want to believe it or not.

    Even one of Hemings Slave Nieces bore children for Mary Hemings husband.

    That’s how they rolled in Virginia back then.

    Bed wenches go all the way back to the beginning of Western Civilization.

  • MikeofAges

    I’m not villifying the teenage Sally Hemings. What I am calling into question is whether the presumed intimate relationship between Hemings and Thomas Jefferson started at that time. Hemings in France was teenager in a society historically noted for its sexual freedom. You, yourself, pointed out that Hemings became pregnant in France and then lost the child. Who the father was is something we can never know. It is utterly beyond the possibility of knowing. Unlike the parentage of Hemings’s later children.

    That is why I do not want to continue this discussion. Absent material knowledge, the whole thing is just a field for culturally motivated speculation. How do you know Sally Hemings didn’t have chance to get out when she was in Paris? You don’t, but the idea that she could have been confined 24-7 while she was there is not credible to me. She could well have had a relationship with a youth or an older man. Or have been sexually assaulted. We don’t know and can’t know. And we can’t fill in the gaps with rank cultural speculation. Assez de.

  • Miranda Lee

    Yes you are vilifying her. By claiming she was some $lut in France. If France was such a sexually free country why didn’t Thomas Jefferson take himself a French Mistress then? Hemings lost the Child in Virginia. She had hoped to stay in France to secure freedom for her and her child since the father was Thomas Jefferson. Since Jefferson could not marry Hemings he persuaded her to go back with him to Virginia where he would free that child and any subsequent children from their Union. Hemings lost that baby but she had other pregnancies with him. Only 4 children survived to adulthood.

    She didn’t. Her primary work in Paris was to take care of Mary Jefferson who was a sickly child. Jefferson maintained a very skeleton household in Paris by accounts of Abigail Adam’s the wife of John Adams who lived in Paris for a while and we’re good friends with the Jeffersons.

    It is through Mrs Adam’s letters and papers that we learn of Sally’s time in Paris.Her work there as Mary Jefferson’s Nanny and Thomas Jefferson housekeeper.
    The fact that Thomas Jefferson bought her a very expensive dress not worthy of a Slave was also a tidy bit learned from Abigail Adam’s papers.

    Again, why continue to vilify Sally like she had any control of her life as a Slave?
    Do you feel better about yourself.

    Please go reacquaint yourself with Abigail Adams letters. Thomas Jefferson was not spending money buying expensive dresses for a $lutty Slave ok.

  • Cher

    How many prostitutes have sons that are spitting images of Bill clinton. His teeth, His chin, his freakin NOSE. You are a fool if you cosign the clinton rapists assholes. And really what kind of woman stays with a man like that? cigars in the white house? how embarrassing for the whole country and we want that again? blah.

  • Miranda Lee

    Please this guy doesn’t look like Bill Clinton. Only your lying eyes convince you of that. He has typical features of a Black Man. The rapper Bow Wow look more like this dude than Bill Clinton does. Next you will say Bow Wow is this guy’s father or Bill Clinton son.

    You stupid. I’m black and I can give you lot’s of guys who look like this dude. Not even one Black person looking at this dude said he looks like Bill Clinton.

    This dude father is a light skinned Cat.

  • Miranda Lee

    I say the same thing everytime I see White people killing each other. I guess White lives really don’t matter.

  • Miranda Lee

    And look at the Donald, hetc cheated on all his 3 wives but then again he is ok with you. Ever noticed why Melania ain’t moving to the WH? Yeah. Wonder why she stays with him. Took his mistress on a Ski vacation with his wife and kids. Then married that slat. Even Trevor Noah looks more like Bill Clinton than this Cat.

    Sally Hemings children looked more like Thomas Jefferson than this Cat looks like Bill. Yet all conservativeset think any man in Virginia except Thomas Jefferson could have fathered Sally’s kids.

  • MikeofAges

    Sally Hemings was a teenager when she was in France. Exactly what life she lived there is unknown. Speculation is, she may have stayed somewhere other than in the Jefferson house. She could have been seduced by a youth or grown man. Or she could have started a relationship with Thomas right there, that is true. But you just don’t know.

    The only thing proven by forensics is that Sally had children by a male Jefferson. You are looking for a probable verdict of history. No matter how much circumstantial evidence you collect, the verdict remains probable. Only forensic science can make it absolute. So you’d better work on getting the heirs to dig up Thomas.

    And, my you’re opinionated. If Sally had a relationship with some male other than Thomas, that doesn’t make her a slut.

    Good thing you’ve butted out already. I’m a not a social work client. You can’t bully me like you do one of them. I see the m.o.

  • Miranda Lee

    There is no speculation that Sally Hemings stayed elsewhere in France. According to Abigail Adam’s, she was Mary Jefferson’s round the clock Nurse and Chaperone in addition to being Thomas Jefferson’s Housekeeper. Where you get your DELUSIONS from I don’t know. But Sally Hemings and her brother who was a Cook for Thomas Jefferson both stayed at the house. Mary Jefferson was a very sick girl when she was in Paris and that was the reason why she never went to Boarding school like her sister Martha because she needed round the clock care. In fact that was the reason why Sally Hemings accompanied her for the voyage.

    Yes and the only males in the Jefferson line who could have fathered Sally Hemings children were Thomas Jefferson father who was deceased, Thomas Jefferson himself or his brother Randolph. Jefferson’s nephew Carr who many of Thomas Jefferson descendents claimed fathered Sally’s kids was excluded by DNA testing.

    And having a relationship out of wedlock those days would make Sally a slut. Remember Slaves could not marry or have sexual relations without the Consent of their Slave owners.

    If the truth bullies you then you have problems.
    So far you have the opinion that Random French men, anyone in the US are logical fathers for Sally Hemings children but not Thomas Jefferson?

    The man who famously petitioned the Virginia Legislature to free Sally Hemings children!
    Bought expensive clothes for Sally Hemings when she was in debt?
    Helped Beverly and Harriet Hemings join DC society as White people?
    Even paid for Harriet’s carriage and security so that she would not be abducted on her way to DC.

    Those are the actions of a FATHER not merely a Slave owner.

  • MikeofAges

    I have heard other things. It is possible that Hemings did not stay in the house during the entirety of her stay there. I read another account that said she stayed somewhere else at least part of the time, in a place that was either a convent or a girls school. It was reported that it was unknown where she lived the entirety of time.

    My sources reported that there were 47 males Jefferson living at the time, not three, 47. Only three in Thomas’s immediate family, true. But 47 total all part of the male line of descent.

    I would like to know what it is that makes every particle of your version more absolutely factual and accurate than everyone else’s, including professional historians who say that many things are uncertain.

    If you do not want to support the idea that further forensic research is necessary to prove the case absolutely, this discussion is useless.

    I suggested already that you should expend your efforts rather in attempting to persuade the Jefferson heirs to support further forensic investigations. That means digging up Thomas and anybody else you need to and can find.

    I already said, if you can recover Thomas’s DNA and that of Heming’s children, you can settle it right there. If not, you will need Thomas and other male Jeffersons in order to determine what genetic markers are unique to Thomas. IF you then find these in the Hemings descendants, you will likewise prove your case.

    Common sense says it is probable Jefferson father children with Hemings. But it is not proven by forensic evidence as of yet. One motive for Jefferson being indulgent toward Hemings was that she was the half-sister of Jefferson’s late wife. Or because he thought he had some perceived duty as the head of the family.

    Reportedly, she closely resembled Jefferson’s wife. Heming’s descent itself is unknown. She had one Black African grandmother, but her grandmother could have been of mixed descent herself. Speculation ranges from Hemings being 1/4 Black African to as little as 1/32. Maybe the forensic work that has been done has shed some light on this. Or may be not. Those who are expert in this science would have to speak to the issue.

  • Miranda Lee

    But where do your sources come from. I gave you mine Abigail Adams. Her letters and papers mention the times Jefferson was in Paris. My belief is that you refuse to name your sources because they are not credible.

    Why Abigail Adams is a credible source.

    1. She was the one who received Mary Jefferson and Sally Hemings when they came to Paris.

    2. They lived briefly with her and her husband as they waited for Jefferson to make room for them at his house.

    3. She was the one who persuaded Jefferson to have Sally Hemings remain in Paris as a round the clock Nurse for Mary because Mary was too I’ll to go to Boarding school.

    4. She acted as a Motherly figure in the Jefferson house for his girls. Hence, she was acquainted with the intimate details of the house.

    5. She was fond of pointing out irregularities in the Jefferson household and if Sally Hemings was having an affair with a random Frenchman neglecting her duties to Mary, that would not have escaped her.

    6. She knew all the members of the Jefferson household, where they lived ( with Thomas) and what their duties were.

    So this “sources” of your that Sally Hemings lived elsewhere are RUBBISH!

    Sally couldn’t afford to pay rent as she was a Slave. Where was she supposed to get money to pay for these dwellingsites?

    Not even Thomas Jefferson lived in fancy apartments because he was debt at the time. Abigail and John Adams had rented Apartments in a Ritzy part of town yet Jefferson lived in a less desirable neighborhood than them.

    Jefferson did not free Sally Hemings children because she was his wife’s half sister.

    All of Betty Hemings children ( Sally’s mother) were Slaves in the Jefferson household and had children. They were all Martha Wayles Jefferson’s half siblings.

    Why didn’t Thomas Jefferson free their children then?

    In fact he freed none of the other descendants of Betty Hemings. One granddaughter of Betty Hemings even had a Child with the husband of Mary Jefferson.

    He invested his time, money, and influence in securing the future of Sally’s children because they were HIS OWN CHILDREN TOO.

    And that BS of 47 male Jefferson line is just that.

    To confirm the parentage of Sally Hemings children, only the male DESCENDANTS OF RANDOLPH were tested as Thomas Jefferson had no Male heirs.

    They found that the children of Randolph and Eston Hemings had a common male heir.

    So the lineage is not of 47 males but that of the Jefferson household only.

    So the children of Sally Hemings could only have 2 possible fathers: Randolph or Thomas. Their father was already deceased at the time Sally had her first child.

  • Miranda Lee

    Touche!

  • Quanbam Tankumam

    Goodness gracious. I haven’t seen so much rambling for a non point.

    1. That 47 male Jefferson stuff you say is bs. Of course you can’t prove it because it is bs nor can you provide a source. The Scientists who did the actual DNA testing narrowed it down to 8 individuals.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    2. Sally Hemings was not the only half sibling of Martha Wayles to live as a Slave of Thomas Jefferson. So why were only her and her children freed?

    3. None of Sally Hemings children were adopted out or deformed. On all accounts they were the model of health in their time.

  • MikeofAges

    Eight persons, if accurate that’s a good result. With more work, it can be narrowed. The 47 male Jeffersons represented the number of male-line descendants of the founder of the Jefferson line in North America. My source is the work of a professional historian, but it was several years that I read this and I do not know who it was.

    As far as the other questions are concerned, there are no possible answers to a certainty absent credible documents which report people’s statements and thinking in a detail. Any talk about motives, while it in fact might be correct, is speculation.

    If there was a relationship between Hemings and Jefferson, no one know the motives of the parties for entering into it. Maybe Sally had a thing for older men. Is found in a few young women, and there is no accounting for it. Maybe Thomas forced her into. Maybe she went into it against her volition for the benefits it provided. Maybe the were just in love as incongruous as that might seem. Maybe Thomas was a little sick of middle class white people but never talked about it.

    Thomas was a philosopher and kind of a polymath. He was a literary figure. A political maverick. He openly questioned the institution even as lived with it and off of it. He was inconsistent. I cited his idealization of the yeoman farmers as an example of his inconsistency. His motives were not those of the average man.

    I want proof, not circumstance. The circumstances are strong, but only forensics can make them absolute. That is my point. All along. Cultural miasma doesn’t cut it on my side of the argument.

    I’ll go so far as to communicate with the Jefferson heirs and argue that they should allow Thomas to be exhumed. They won’t pay attention to me, but that’s the most I can do. You and Miranda Lee also should do the same thing.

  • Quanbam Tankumam

    Well if you and your historian source bothered to read the results of the DNA tests you would learn

    1. The Jefferson male line did have a unique marker in the male line.

    2 of the 8 males were deceased by the time Sally Hemings had her children.

    The other 4 were too young to father Sally Hemings children.

    Carr was not of Male Jefferson descent.

    They also tested descendants of Males related paternally to Thomas Jefferson father and Uncle. None were a match.

    That lives Tommy boy and Randolph as the only true candidates.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    I doubt Slave Master relations were consensual. The Master owned the Slave and there was no penalty for raping a Slave.

    The Jefferson heirs refused to have his body exhumed the first time.

    That is why they had to test the way they did.

    Like they say in the South in these matters, ” Don’t go digging too deep in the Woodpile”.

    A similar case happened with Richard Mentor Johnston the 9th Vice President.

    He only had 2 children ( girls) with a Mulatto Slave, he tried to marry her was ostracized by society. Only one daughter survived him from his Slave union to Julia Chin. He freed her, she married a sympathetic White doctor and moved to the North.

    Her descendants in Arizona recently found out they were related to Richard Mentor Johnston. To hide their origins, her family history was suppressed since Mentor Johnston was nationally scandalized. It took detective work and DNA testing to prove that they were descended from a Slave and the 9th Vice President of the US.

    It happens.

  • MikeofAges

    The 47 was the reported number of male line descendants of the founder of the Jefferson line in North America. If forensic science proves that only eight could gave been the father of the Hemings children, then that is a step toward proving the case, if accurate.

    That is exactly my point. Only science will prove it definitively. It is not proven yet, and I don’t think it can be without recovering the DNA of Thomas Jefferson specifically. Unless you can prove somehow that Thomas carries certain DNA markers his other relatives did not. He had to have some. That is how DNA testing works, unique markers. The issue is to identify them and then show that they exist also in the Hemings descendants.

    No matter what, the case is still circumstantial.

    As far as sources are concerned, you are citing common sources just like I am. Mine are older. I remember what they said. But it was several years ago at least and I do not remember what they were. Except for the speculation that Hemings lived somewhere other than in the Jefferson household, that is more recent. Unless you can find someone who was there continuously and who specifically asserts that Hemings never left the house and never stayed somewhere else the entire time, nothing is proven. I have never heard anyone else make the emphatic claims about Abigail Adams you are. As far as the idea of Hemings having a relationship with a local, it could have been discreet. She did not have to be a profligate to get pregnant. There is some middle ground there in between “it had to be Thomas” and “slut”. All that was needed was that she be charmed by some guy once. That’s what happens today often enough, isn’t it?

    Abigail Adams may be a good source. But was she there 24/7 and for the entire duration of the time Hemings and the Jefferson were in Paris? To me, the idea that Thomas Jefferson started an affair with her at that time is the least credible of all of the assertions.

  • MikeofAges

    Again, a jump from fact to cultural interpolation. You have to work from data to conclusion. You have little to no data on which to base any conclusion about what the reason for any relationship was. People get cold at night. Even in Virginia. Actually, I was in Richmond in early February 2012. It was cold. They experience desires. They become disaffected with their own kind. They are happy with some one particular person, but not another. You have to deal with the contingent, because that’s all there is. “It’s life and life only.” Bob Dylan said that, and now that he’s a Nobel laureate even you have to listen.

    In fact, it might pay for you to look up the song and read the lyrics. It’s the same one where he said “But even the president of the United States sometimes has to stand naked.”

    Actually, it was the same one where he said: “Old lady judges watch people in pairs / Limited in sex, they dare / To push fake morals, insult and stare / While money doesn’t talk, it swears / Obscenity, who really cares / Propaganda, all is phony.”

    So maybe you’ve turned yourself into the “[old] lady judge”, the one who’s pushing “fake morals”, and playing the money game. In case you haven’t figured it out, what I am trying to do is cut off all of this cultural interpolation, the laying of cultural memes over limited facts. Another name for it is propaganda.

    If the genetic studies show what you say they do, it is a step forward and exactly what I said should have been done. They should be completed. But when they are, we still will not know the why. We don’t know why the couples we see on the street today are in the relationships they are. How are we going to know what the relationships between people who lived 200 years and longer were about? Especially when the norms of the society they lived in required them to maintain secrecy? All forbidden relationships had to be conducted in secret or behind a convenient curtain which allowed outsiders denial. Racial boundaries true, but also ethnic boundaries. Class boundaries. Even affairs between people in the same class. And same-sex relationships, obviously.

    If you know all of the secrets of the human heart, you should be lecturing, preaching or writing a great book, not pestering me for wanting to see certain facts proved true absolutely. I don’t know all the secrets of the human heart. I only know that they are there. I know certain things happen. But I don’t assume. Because I know you can’t.

  • Quanbam Tankumam

    The only one jumping to conclusions are you and your fake historian friends.

    I go by what is historically and Scientifically Sound.
    1. The Jefferson male line did have a unique marker in the male line.

    2 of the 8 males were deceased by the time Sally Hemings had her children.

    The other 4 were too young to father Sally Hemings children.

    Carr was not of Male Jefferson descent.

    They also tested descendants of Males related paternally to Thomas Jefferson father and Uncle. None were a match.

    That lives Tommy boy and Randolph as the only true candidates.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/

    I doubt Slave Master relations were consensual. The Master owned the Slave and there was no penalty for raping a Slave.

    The Jefferson heirs refused to have his body exhumed the first time.

    That is why they had to test the way they did.

    Like they say in the South in these matters, ” Don’t go digging too deep in the Woodpile”.

    A similar case happened with Richard Mentor Johnston the 9th Vice President.

    He only had 2 children ( girls) with a Mulatto Slave, he tried to marry her was ostracized by society. Only one daughter survived him from his Slave union to Julia Chin. He freed her, she married a sympathetic White doctor and moved to the North.

    Her descendants in Arizona recently found out they were related to Richard Mentor Johnston. To hide their origins, her family history was suppressed since Mentor Johnston was nationally scandalized. It took detective work and DNA testing to prove that they were descended from a Slave and the 9th Vice President of the US.

  • Miranda Lee

    Abigail Adam’s was a better source than any of those sources you claim you have. And much older as she WAS THERE IN PARIS! Unlike your racist sources who were born in the 20th century.
    Were your sources with Sally Hemings 24/7 either? Nope!
    Sally Hemings and Mary Jefferson lived with Abigail Adams for 6 months. Abigail Adam’s acted as their Chaperone when they left the Jefferson house in Paris.
    So who are your sources again? Care to divulge their names?

    2 of the 8 men were already deceased. The other 4 were too young to have fathered Sally Hemings children. That leaves Thomas and Randolph alone.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    Speculation that Sally lived elsewhere are false.
    Letters written by THOMAS JEFFERSON HIMSELF note that Sally Hemings and her brother lived with him in Paris.

    I guess your sources are better than Thomas Jefferson and Abigail Adams.

  • MikeofAges

    The suggestion I heard is that part of the time she was in Paris, she did not live in the Jefferson household. Professional historians have looked at these documents and they apparently differ in their conclusions. Unless it was overtly stated that Hemings was in the household 24/7 for however long the Jeffersons were there, you can only conclude that there can be no absolute answer to some of the questions a person might want to ask. It has to be overtly and affirmatively stated that she was always there. If the statement was of lesser definitiveness or fell into the realm of a generality, if you make emphatic assertions, then you are simply painting with a broad brush.

    If you want to be inductive in your reasoning, here are some facts to consider. Sally and her brother both had some interest in learning the French language. Sally apparently considered applying for French citizenship. Both of these facts speak of an exposure beyond that of being confined to a house. What that exposure was, we can never know. We can speculate or postulate, but not know.

  • MikeofAges

    Exactly what I told you before. Then someone is doing exactly the kind of forensic work that should be done to prove these assertion. It is not completed yet.

    For another thing, unique genetic markers can be inherited from either parent. Only the Y-line haplogroup and the mitochondrial haplogroup are uniquely inherited from one parent, the male and the female respectively.

    As many male Jeffersons as there were alive who were descended through the male line from the founder in the New World, that is how many there were. Some of them may have lived nowhere near Charlottesville or even Virginia. The eight may refer to the number who were resident in the area. Or it may have been proven that there was some marker that was unique to Thomas and Randolph. But that marker was not the Y haplogroup if there were other Jefferson males in the world.

    I know how this works. What we call DNA testing grew out of histocompatibility testing developed to do tissue matching for transplants. You can consider that to be akin to blood type but involving more obscure factors beyond those which would affect blood transfusions. Contemporary testing might also involve testing for specific genes, but the histocompatibility test does not test for the presence of genes as such.

    An example of unique marker might be a gene for some enzyme which one brother inherited from either the mother or the father but the other brother did not. Or it could be something both Thomas and Randolph inherited that no other Jefferson (i.e. a cousin) had. Or it could be some specific histocompatibility marker. That is why you need forensic study down to the individual to prove anything absolutely. Possibly, if you could prove that some Thomas Jefferson descendants, they would not have to be male, carried some gene no other Jefferson descendants carried, and you could prove that the Hemings descendants carried the same gene, then you would have a very strong forensic case.

    I am very aware of the depredation that took place under slavery, not that they were unique to the institution. Some of the same things happened in other hierarchial social system. But people have to live. And they can only live where they do and seek their objective and subjective needs from within their surroundings. That can blur the boundaries between the voluntary and involuntary. Tell me any place where life is not contingent.

  • Miranda Lee

    No Professional historian has suggested anything of the sort. Name them, please do.
    Why are you so ashamed of naming your sources?

    Sally Hemings and her brother learned the French language from the same female tutor that was tutoring Mary Jefferson.

    Remember Mary Jefferson was homeschooling because of her health.

    And when someone says ” Round the clock nursemaid” what does that mean?

    Because that was how both Abigail Adams and Thomas Jefferson described Sally Hemings purpose in the Jefferson household.

    Sally’s application of French citizenship does not mean she left the house on her own.

    She was very fond of Mary Jefferson’s French Governess who was her tutor. And the feeling was mutual. She was the one friend Sally Hemings had outside the Jefferson circle.

    Have you considered that maybe that lady convinced her to take French citizenship after she was with Child and faced an uncertain future in Virginia?

    And why was Thomas Jefferson racking up huge bills in buying clothing for a Slave in Paris?

    His financial situation had always been precarious ever since his father in law died and left him with huge debts.

    In fact Jefferson couldn’t afford to live in swanky apartments like the Adams and had to have his sickly daughter Mary and Sally stay with them when they first got to Paris.

  • Quanbam Tankumam

    Well if you bothered to read the Forensic analysis it could save you a long rambling article on utter nonsense.

    They tested also males in England where Jefferson’s forebearers immigrated from and other Jefferson relatives in Virginia. None had the Unique marker.

    This unique marker was shared only by the descendants of Peter and Field Jefferson the sons of Captain Thomas Jefferson.

    That means they must have inherited it from their MOTHER’s side if none of the other Male Jeffersons had it.

    That was why they narrowed it down to 8 individuals two of them being Peter and Field Jefferson. The only surviving sons of Captain Thomas Jefferson who had offspring.

    The rest of the 6 were Thomas and Randolph Jefferson. And their 4 male cousins.

    Neither of Thomas Jefferson male cousins lived anywhere near him. Only Randolph did.

  • MikeofAges

    Everything you are talking about is speculation. You do not know the necessary details which would confirm that what you are saying is absolutely true. You cannot know what happened 24/7 over a long period of time. No one can know. It is impossible to know. You simply do not know what exposure Sally Hemings and her brother had, whether they ever got out on their own, had friends in their peer group or anything else. You don’t know because it cannot be known. There isn’t enough detailed record. The more you talk about Abigail Adam the less I think she knew everything that was going on. She had top have a life there too, apart from hanging out with the Jeffersons, I am sure. She and John could have traveled away from Paris, been involved in duties or a social life locally. She cannot have known everything either. There is no absolute record.

  • Miranda Lee

    I see you couldn’t muster to bring the names of these Professionals that you keep posting.
    It’s you dealing with Speculation. You claim Sally Hemings had a French boyfriend? Where was that gleamed from? Letters, Correspondence anything to let us know that.

    Abigail Adams letters are at the Smithsonian. She had a long record of Correspondence with Thomas Jefferson from the time she moved to Paris to the time here husband was posted as London’s Ambassador.

    Why the lady and Thomas Jefferson were so thick back then that when she was in London she wrote to Thomas Jefferson to send her Fashionable French Stockings. He complied and requested he buy her English Tea Napkins in London.

    This was a very intimate relationship if Thomas Jefferson was buying her Stocking!

    So yes she knew a lot about Thomas Jefferson in Paris.

    Remember Sally Hemings and Mary Jefferson stayed with her for 6 MONTHS!

    She was the one who told Thomas Jefferson not to send Mary to Boarding school like her sister Martha but to homeschool her due to her health. She even chaperonedo Mary and Sally Hemings in Paris.

    I think you are very upset. You can’t name a single credible source for your theories, your 47 male Jefferson theory was disproved by DNA testing. It’s only 8 and 2 were deceased when Sally Hemings was first pregnant.

    You can’t explain why Thomas Jefferson spent a lot of money on Sally Hemings in Paris.

    You can’t even explain why despite all of Sally’s siblings being slaves to Thomas Jefferson, only Sally Hemings children were freed, and by Petition to the Virginia Assembly.

    It’s you who is speculating and Deflecting. Eston Hemings was born in Virginia a year before Thomas Jefferson left office.

    I guess Sally’s imaginary French boyfriend was to blame eh?

  • MikeofAges

    I have read a number of things about ThomasJefferson’s relationship with Sally Hemings. I remember what was said. I do not generally remember who said it. I have been reading history and features about politics and public affairs for 55 years. I do assess everything I read. Just I like I am assessing what you are saying. A few years from now, I will remember what you said and what my opinions as to it are. But I probably will not remember your name. This an people’s forum. I don’t have to go to extremes of documentation and neither do you.

    Get this through you head. The reported 47 male Jeffersons means 47 male line descendants from the founder of the line in the New World. Not all of them may have been available as potential candidates to father children in the area where Jefferson and Hemings lived. The number of eight may mean the number verified as carriers of certain DNA markers by such research as has been able to be done. Keep in mind, people inherits DNA markers from both their male and female parents. The Y-haplogroup is the only marker unique to the male and the mitochondrial haplogroup the only one unique to the female. I know that much and you apparently don’t. Or you don’t speak like you do anyway.

    If Sally Hemings had a local boyfriend or suitor when she was in Paris 1787-89, obviously he was not the father of any children she conceived after that time.

    Many things are unknown. The insistence that a man like Jefferson would have no possible reason for emancipating some particular female chattel slave other than that he was the father of her children is not reasonable. It is a likely reason, and most probably the reason in Jefferson’s case. But it is not the only possible reason. What is going on here is that you have a number of cultural templates which you are laying over limited facts, and then insisting that because of these templates other facts must exist. But you do not know everything. I don’t. No one does, or can.

    That is why I would like to DNA and forensic testing done to the limit of what is possible. This is an important issue American history given that Jefferson was one of the principal founders of the country and then an iconic president.

    As a consequence of these discussions, I intend to write to the Jefferson heir, I think there is a Jefferson foundation, and argue to them that as much DNA and forensic research as is possible should be done. Even if means disturbing the dead. That is all I can do. Otherwise, I am not going to insist that anything is true that is not proven. I can suggest possibilities that themselves might have a cultural basis, but that is all I am going to do. I am not going to insist that any facts must exist on account of some cultural template even if that template is generally valid.

    I don’t think any assertion about nature of the institution of Black African chattel slavery in the United States or the colonies before the revolution can be taken as absolutely valid for all places at all times and for all individual situation. The institution existed for more than two centuries in the colonies and the United States, involved millions of people, and covered a quarter of a continent. How can any generalization always be valid?

  • Miranda Lee

    So basically for the past 55 years you have been listening to Heresay about Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings?

    Well if the Y chromosome is only found in Peter and Field Jefferson and not the other 47 male Jefferson’s, what does that tell you?

    That the Jefferson’s may not have been genetically descended from the same line as the 47 Male Jeffersons.

    Remember they even tested males from England from the Jefferson line and they too were excluded.

    It appears it is you who knows nothing about DNA or INFIDELITY for that matter.

    Well generalizations are not valid and not needed in this case because of the sheer amount of EVIDENCE!

    So this case is argued on the it’s own merits.

    You can’t explain why Thomas Jefferson spent a lot of money on Sally Hemings in Paris.

    You can’t even explain why despite all of Sally’s siblings being slaves to Thomas Jefferson, only Sally Hemings children were freed, and by Petition to the Virginia Assembly.

    Mulattos children weren’t springing out of nowhere.

    White men weren’t petitioning Assemblies to release just a few slaves.

    Still can’t name your sources these ” PROFESSIONAL HISTORIANS”.

  • MikeofAges

    The same Y chromosome will be found in any male Jefferson. If you are going to look for a unique marker, it will have to be elsewhere in the DNA. No one says biracial children “spring out nowhere”. I’m just sure not sure you are absolutely clear on the concept of the descent of the Y haplogroup through the male and the mitochondrial haplogroup through the female. A female offspring does not inherit the father’s Y-chromosme, but inherits the mother’s motochondrial DNA which she then passes on the her offspring. A male inherit’s the mother’s mitochondrial DNA, but does not pass it on to his offspring.

    Thomas and Randolph could have markers no other Jefferson male has, inherited through their mother or other individual female forebearer.

    I keep on telling you, just because something is likely does not make it certain. Literal millions over many generations were involved in the institution of slavery on both sides of the line. Many things happened. Although certain things were more likely than others, in any specific case, you have to know to a certainty to state to a certainty. Otherwise, you are laying a cultural template above a limited field of facts and filling in the rest. That is not forensics. You can’t go to court on that. Not that lawyers, especially prosecutors, don’t implicitly do that anyway.

    In case you don’t understand it, I am disputing you cultural template, not your facts.

  • Miranda Lee

    It’s you who has a problem with understanding DNA. It was Field and Peter Jefferson who had that unique marker. Not the descendants of the other Male Jeffersons.

    Maybe Field and Peter were not true Jeffersons. Have you ever thought of that?

    Disputing my Cultural template on what grounds?

    Facts are FACTS! Sorry that my FACTS are murdering your understanding of Cultural template.

    You can’t explain why Thomas Jefferson spent a lot of money on Sally Hemings in Paris.

    You can’t even explain why despite all of Sally’s siblings being slaves to Thomas Jefferson, only Sally Hemings children were freed, and by Petition to the Virginia Assembly.

    These things happened! I am not basing them on any Cultural template of the Era.

    Thomas Jefferson did petition the Virginia Assembly to free Sally Hemings children.

    He really did do that? Despite the fact that Sally Hemings siblings also had children but were not freed.

    It was not unusual for a Slave child to be freed by it’s owner especially if the owner was the Father!

  • MikeofAges

    You’d better explain then what kind of marker you are talking about. All male Jefferson descended through the male line from the founder would belong to the same Y-haplogroup. If these people, Field and Peter, have some unique marker, it would have to somewhere else in the genome. What it looks like to me is that you are agreeing with what I said in the first place and don’t even know it.

    I said in the first place that some marker unique to Thomas, or at least Thomas and Randolph, would have to be located and then the same marker would have to be located in the Hemings descendants. But that maker could not the Y-chromosome because all male Jeffersons would be members of the same Y-haplogroup. You haven’t yet said anything which indicates that you understand the matter of the descent of the Y-line and the mitochondrial line through the male and the female respectively.

    You may understand the issue, but nothing you have said makes it clear that you do.

    I pay a lot of attention to issues in history and politics. If the story had been covered properly with in the last few years, I would know about the forensic work you are talking about. But I do not think you understand it completely.

  • Miranda Lee

    Actually the marker was on the Y chromosome and only 1.5 % of all European males have it. However it is not found on any of the other Male Jeffersons. It is found only in the families of Peter and Field Jefferson.

    So if that is the case, what does that tell you about Peter and Field Jefferson’s parentage?

    Remember their father Captain Thomas Jefferson was a Military man who was often away.

    I’m not agreeing with you at all. Quite the opposite.

    If Peter and Field Jefferson did not have the same marker on their Y chromosome as their father and his male relatives it can only mean one thing.

    On the contrary this was covered very well even PBS had a special on it.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    I believe you have a problem with only seeking out information you feel is in line with your theories.

  • MikeofAges

    If a certain Y-line is found only in Peter and Field Jefferson, it means that their father was not related the other Jeffersons. If all of these Jeffersons are supposed to be descended through the male line from a founder of the family it raises an interesting question, namely: Who are Peter and Field then descended from through the male line?

    Now I have a research issue and I am going to do my own research. I have to see if it is some other marker that is unique to this branch of the Jeffersons, rather than the Y-haplogroup marker. I don’t let other people run my mind. I’ll look into myself and come to my own conclusions.

  • Miranda Lee

    Okay Peter and Field Jefferson were Thomas Jefferson’s father and Uncle respectively. They were the only sons of Captain Thomas Jefferson to survive to adulthood and bear male Progeny. That is why the male descendants of the 4 sons of Field Jefferson, Randolph and Eston Hemings have that unique marker on their Y chromosome. Which distinguishes them from all the other descendants of Males related to Captain Thomas Jefferson.

    That was how they were able to narrow down Sally Hemings children’s possible fathers to 8.

    Being Peter and Field Jefferson, 4 sons of Field Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson and Randolph Jefferson.

    This information led to the reluctance of many in the Jefferson Clan to the exhumation and further DNA testing.

    There are many secrets it appears the Jefferson clan want buried with the dead.

  • MikeofAges

    I know who Peter and Field were. I’m doing my own research. If Peter and Field belong to a unique Y-haplogroup it means either that they were not related to the other male Jefferson, which makes it interesting, or there was a mutation along the way. I am not sure you 100 percent understand the issue here. I’ll look into it, and I’ll tell you.

    Can’t do it right now. I’m in a graduate program and I have a huge amount of reading for the week. Sorry.

  • Miranda Lee

    I doubt you are not in any Graduate program. Besides it was you who said some comments ago that there can’t be any genetic mutation on a Y chromosome because it is passed on from father to son.
    So now you contradict yourself?

    Peter and Field Jefferson could very well have been their father’s son, the genetic mutation could have occurred in Captain Thomas Jefferson their father or maybe they were fathered by another man.

    Either way, Sally Hemings children were Jeffersons. Even an ex Slave confirmed Sally Hemings only job was being Thomas Jefferson Chamber maid and she was lived in Monticello and was indeed his Mistress.
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/cron/1873israel.html

  • MikeofAges

    Once again, you are saying something that makes it sound like you do not understand the issue. Mutations occur in the descent of the Y-line and the mitochondrial line, but at a very low rate. When a mutation occurs, it creates a new haplogroup. What I said is, if Peter and Field Jefferson belonged to a different Y-haplogroup than the other male Jeffersons, either there had to have been a mutation along the way or mama or gandma or great-grandma was messing around and they are not Jeffersons at all. Not genetically.

    I suspect the unique marker you are referring to is elsewhere in genome. It could be in chromosome 23 at that, but I doubt very much that it represents a mutation in the Y-haplogroup. I will do my own research. I am qualified to do it. There are too many things having to do with genetic inheritance that you apparently do not understand very well.

  • Miranda Lee

    Actually the unique marker is in the Y haplogroup and only 1.5% of all European males have it.

    It’s nowhere else. Apparently the researchers who actually did the DNA TESTING thought so too.

    Are you challenging their hypothesis also on the basis that they know nothing about Genetic testing too?

    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    A primer on Y microsatelite Haplotype for those “Genetic experts” like you.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8923004

    You know sooooo much yet you can’t name a single credible source. Hmmm!!!

  • MikeofAges

    I have to research this. But I can’t do it until later in the week. I am taking two graduate classes right now. The issue is, either Peter and Field belong to same Y-haplogroup as the other male Jeffersons. Or the don’t. If they don’t either there was a mutation, that is how new haplogroups are created, or they are not actually Jeffersons. I don’t think either of these things are true, mutations are very rare, so I think there has to be some confusion in your explanation. Sorry about that, but that’s the logic of the situation.

  • Miranda Lee

    Of course mutations are rare. That is why the mutation they have is found in only 1.5 % of the European male population.

    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/

    A primer on Y microsatelite Haplotype for those “Genetic experts” like you.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p

    And the fact that the male descendants of Eston Hemings have it too proves he was a Jefferson and not a Carr.

    Both the overseer of Thomas Jefferson estate and Thomas and Randolph Jefferson surviving relatives all asserted that only his Nephew Carr could have been the father of Sally Hemings children.

    Well Carr does not have that mutation nor the same Y haplogroup as Eston Hemings, as he was the son of Thomas Jefferson sister and not in the male Jefferson line.

    Keeping up with your imaginary graduate studies eh?

  • MikeofAges

    I will research it myself. I still don’t think you understand the terminology quite correctly.

    I’m a matriculated graduate student at a public university in the United States, in an M.A. program in a liberal arts subject. You don’t speak well for yourself making the assertion you do.

  • Miranda Lee

    And you don’t speak well for yourself as a Graduate student quouting opinions of dubious sources. In fact you haven’t even presented the name of one credible source to back your arguments.
    Is this how you plan to defend your thesis?

    Since we are all giving out our credentials, I am a Biomedical Engineer who is retired. I got my BSc in Electrical Engineering in 1984 from a Public Institution in Iowa. I got my MSc and PhD in Biomedical Engineering 1986 and 1991 from a very famous private University out West. Worked for 23 years and now I am retired due to some savvy investments and very good patents.

    It’s you who don’t know what you are talking about. Liberal arts degrees are Bogus.
    Just ask anyone in Academia.

    Of course mutations are rare. That is why the mutation they have is found in only 1.5 % of the European male population.

    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/

    A primer on Y microsatelite Haplotype for those “Genetic experts” like you.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/p

    And the fact that the male descendants of Eston Hemings have it too proves he was a Jefferson and not a Carr.

    Both the overseer of Thomas Jefferson estate and Thomas and Randolph Jefferson surviving relatives all asserted that only his Nephew Carr could have been the father of Sally Hemings children.

    Well Carr does not have that mutation nor the same Y haplogroup as Eston Hemings, as he was the son of Thomas Jefferson sister and not in the male Jefferson line.

    Keeping up with your imaginary graduate studies eh?

  • MikeofAges

    All male Jeffersons descended from some identified male founder have to belong to the same Y-haplogroup unless there was some mutation along the way. Either that or some of them are not actually male Jeffersons. I looked at some sources and none of them as of yet refer to confirm your arguments about microsatellite DNA, though they do say that microsatellite DNA can be used to determine kinship and paternity.

    I will continue looking, but I suspect nothing will be found that will confirm by forensic science that Thomas and no one else could be the father of some or all of Sally Heming’s children.

    The Carr Jefferson you are referring might be Peter Carr, who was descended from the Jefferson through his sister Martha. He also was postulated as the father of the Heming’s children. But he was not a male Jefferson. No surprise that he belonged to a different Y-haplogroup.

    Until you can prove that there was some genetic marker unique to Thomas that the Hemings descendants also have, you have not proved by forensic science that Jefferson was the father of any of Hemings’s children. The historical case that he was the father of at least some of Heming’s children is quite strong. But it does not represent forensic proof.

    I will continue to look into this issue, but I am not going to name the sources. This is an online forum. I am not writing a journal article or even a magazine article. By the way, your links don’t even work. I am not saying there is no article on the other end, but the links don’t get you there.

    What are you doing saying liberal arts degrees are bogus? They are degrees in the subject they are in. Not your subject, apparently. But someone’s subject.

  • Miranda Lee

    I guess you read none of my sources. Read again. Below is an excerpt.
    Dr. Foster conducted DNA tests on 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Jefferson’s paternal uncle, Field Jefferson, and 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Woodson, including Thomas, Sally Hemings’ first child (1790-1879), 1 male line descendant of Eston, Sally Hemings’ last child (1808-1852), and 3 male line descendants of 3 sons of John Carr (grandfather of Samuel and Peter Carr, or Jefferson’s nephews), long thought by the acknowledged Thomas Jefferson descendants to have been responsible for Sally Heming’s children. For good measure, a panel of white descendants of Monticello’s neighbors were also tested in case their forefathers might have contributed to Sally Heming’s offspring.

    Rare DNA Halotype.
    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%. It has never been observed outside the Jefferson family, and it was not found among a sample of 670 European or 1,200 people worldwide.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    You didn’t read this source? Really? You did not find UNIQUE DNA MARKER IN THIS ABOVE PARAGRAPH?

  • MikeofAges

    Your discussion is very scattered. It has long been known that the Hemings descendants, some of them anyway, are descended from a male Jefferson.

    I am going to do my own research. When I do, I will report the results. Again, you would have to find marker unique to Thomas and then find it in the Hemings descendants. Otherwise you prove nothing definitively,

  • Miranda Lee

    No my discussion is not scattered. You are. You have been all over the place. First with your 47 Male Jefferson lies, attacking the credibility of established and respected historical and DNA sources all the while providing none of your own.
    I guess you read none of my sources. Read again. Below is an excerpt.
    Dr. Foster conducted DNA tests on 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Jefferson’s paternal uncle, Field Jefferson, and 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Woodson, including Thomas, Sally Hemings’ first child (1790-1879), 1 male line descendant of Eston, Sally Hemings’ last child (1808-1852), and 3 male line descendants of 3 sons of John Carr (grandfather of Samuel and Peter Carr, or Jefferson’s nephews), long thought by the acknowledged Thomas Jefferson descendants to have been responsible for Sally Heming’s children. For good measure, a panel of white descendants of Monticello’s neighbors were also tested in case their forefathers might have contributed to Sally Heming’s offspring.

    Rare DNA Halotype.
    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%. It has never been observed outside the Jefferson family, and it was not found among a sample of 670 European or 1,200 people worldwide.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/

    You didn’t read this source? Really? You did not find UNIQUE DNA MARKER IN THIS ABOVE PARAGRAPH?

  • MikeofAges

    You have to show that there is some marker unique to Thomas and then show its presence in the Hemings descendants. The historical evidence is strong, true, but that is not forensic evidence. It is circumstantial evidence.

    The male Carrs were not male line Jefferson. They have been ruled out. They have literally nothing to do with this discussion.

    You are not speaking with clarity. Nor always using language very well. Your language calls into question whether you have a graduate degree. Your logic calls into question whether your are an engineer of any kind. Let me finish my research and then you can dispute if you wish. But keep in mind, I have as yet found no forensic proof of the claim. That does not mean it is false. It just means that there is no proof down to the molecular level as of yet. Not that I have independently located. It would help if I knew the first name of the Dr. Foster you allude to.

    I will find summary of his conclusions for myself.

  • Miranda Lee

    Did you read that evidence? THEY DID FIND THE SAME RARE MUTATION IN ESTON HEMINGS MALE DESCENDANTS!

    Rare DNA Halotype.
    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%. It has never been observed outside the Jefferson family, and it was not found among a sample of 670 European or 1,200 people worldwide.

    Nonspecific DNA Results Link “Some” Jefferson.
    Dr. Foster found that there was a match between the male descendants of Uncle Field Jefferson and those of Sally Heming’s youngest son, Eston Hemings.

    Prove how my language shows me not to be a graduate?

    I doubt you are doing any Graduate work or even been to College.

    You’ve spent too much time on this discussion to be one.

    You haven’t even mentioned your degree. Don’t bother I’m not holding my breath on that.

    You offer statements bit no proof or credible sources.

    Can’t debate facts with facts, you only produce your opinions.

    Finally, you can’t READ or COMPREHEND.

    Dumbed down America it is then.

    Feel free to reply back. It seems you have a lot of free time to do so.

    But you are those petty Narcissistic people who think having the last word in an argument makes you right.

    Well I have plenty of time to waste schooling young uns.

  • MikeofAges

    What is Dr. Foster’s first name? I want to find out who he is and find a summary of his conclusions. All that has been proven as of yet according to any article I can find is that the Hemings descendants are descended from the a Jefferson. You have too many problem with your use of language and your logic. I’ll get it straightened out an tell you what the story is. You’re not going to tell me.

  • Miranda Lee

    Well considering I gave you this proof of Dr Foster a week ago, I am shocked you didn’t read it. Well it is in this article. I will conduct a short experiment to prove once and for all your Comprehension skills.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/

    Well for someone accusing me of having a language problem, you wrote ” too many problem”, pray do tell where on this earth that is proper English language?

    Is that how you write your papers in Graduate school?

    And why is my logic unsound? Because it doesn’t line up with your delusions?

    I see you have given up on your fake ” I need to study for Grad school” Marlarkey!

    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%. It has never been observed outside the Jefferson family, and it was not found among a sample of 670 European or 1,200 people worldwide.

    Nonspecific DNA Results Link “Some” Jefferson.
    Dr. Foster found that there was a match between the male descendants of Uncle Field Jefferson and those of Sally Heming’s youngest son, Eston Hemings.

    Now ain’t that the truth.

  • MikeofAges

    Your links don’t work. That may not be your fault, but they don’t. It has long been know that at least some of Hemings’s descendant are descended from a male Jefferson. You can keep the “ain’t that the truths” to yourself.

  • Miranda Lee

    Actually my links work. I have been using them on this same thread to debate someone else and they have no trouble opening them. Lying again I see eh? Told you, you have a problem with anything that challenges your delusions. You will have to try better than that. NEXT DEFLECTION!

    And no that was only proven in the 90s with DNA testing. Prior to that the Jefferson family including his daughter Martha always maintained Carr was the father.

    Now you keep your delusional Graduate school education, 47 male Jeffersons and other lies you told here to yourself.

    Ain’t that the truth!

    Dr. Foster conducted DNA tests on 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Jefferson’s paternal uncle, Field Jefferson, and 5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Woodson, including Thomas, Sally Hemings’ first child (1790-1879), 1 male line descendant of Eston, Sally Hemings’ last child (1808-1852), and 3 male line descendants of 3 sons of John Carr (grandfather of Samuel and Peter Carr, or Jefferson’s nephews), long thought by the acknowledged Thomas Jefferson descendants to have been responsible for Sally Heming’s children. For good measure, a panel of white descendants of Monticello’s neighbors were also tested in case their forefathers might have contributed to Sally Heming’s offspring.

    Rare DNA Halotype.
    The average frequency of a microsatelite halotype like Jefferson’s is about 1.5%. It has never been observed outside the Jefferson family, and it was not found among a sample of 670 European or 1,200 people worldwide.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/primer.html

    Dr Foster’s name for those with reading issues.

    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/

  • MikeofAges

    I’m not deflecting anything, and I am in a graduate program. I found the PBS material on my own. Dr. Foster is Eugene Foster, a former professor of pathology at Tufts University and the University of Virginia, now deceased.

    He stated that in his studies, “We had to use Y-chromosomal DNA exclusively, because the Y-chromosomal DNA is passed unchanged from generation to generation, from father to son only. The rest of a person’s DNA is diluted by at least half with every generation.”

    He goes on: “So we looked at the Y chromosome of male members of the Jefferson family. The reason we had to look at members of the Jefferson family was that Thomas Jefferson himself did not have any male line of descent. So we actually looked at the descendants of one of his paternal uncles, Field Jefferson. We found that, of the five people in this line, they all had the same Y-chromosomal type, which meant that we had identified the Jefferson family chromosome.”

    But he notes: “That does not say that it belonged to Thomas Jefferson. But it was the only way that we could get at the Jefferson family; Jefferson lacked a male line of descent. . . . We were able to establish what the Jefferson family Y chromosome was. In conjunction with historical evidence, that piece of evidence could be used to arrive at an opinion as to whether Thomas Jefferson was the father of the various people in dispute.”

    In sum, Foster is saying that the forensic evidence shows only that the Hemings descendants are descended from some male Jefferson. That means that the available forensic evidence serves only as a part of the circumstantial evidence that Thomas was the father of some or all of the Hemings children.

    If you do not understand that, it is not my fault.

    Other PBS material indicates that the burial place of a Hemings male line grandson, the son of her son, has been located. If both he and Thomas could be exhumed and DNA recovered, then it could be proved he was Thomas’s descendant.

    The circumstantial evidence is considerable, but circumstantial evidence is not forensic proof. The forensic proof is still lacking.

    Possibly, if enough people living or dead could tested maybe evidence could be developed showing that some unique marker had to have been inherited only by Thomas and then passed through him to the Hemings descendants. But whether that could be done and how it would be done would have to be left to the experts competent to conduct a study like that. Again, the better course would be to dig up Thomas and hope a usable genome and tissue type profile could be recovered from him.

    All the evidence I have indicates that either you do not entirely understand the forensic issue or you are a less than competent communicator, or both.

    Until the necessary forensic studies are done to prove the case scientifically, it stays in the court of history.

    Beyond that, we don’t know the motives of anybody in doing what they did. We don’t know when the relationship between Hemings and Jefferson started or why either party entered into it. When don’t everything about the life Hemings and her brother lived in France. We don’t what degree of white and black ancestry Hemings had, the possibilities range from 3/4 to 31/32 white or 1/4 to 1/32 black. I imagine her black grandmother had some white ancestry already, but I don’t know. We don’t know what she looked like, reportedly she closely resembled Jefferson’s late wife and therefore looked white, but we don’t know.

    One thing we do know is what in the era was regarded as the age at which a young female could enter into a relationship with an adult man. It was 16 years old. In Latin American society, it was 15. I have a brother who worked as software engineer. One his past coworkers was from the Latin American middle class, and his 30-year-old brother back home in Central America, a medical doctor, married a 15 year old. This was in recent years.

    Just accept the fact that you do not know. Especially that you don’t know the all of the social reality people lived with. The science is potentially provable. The rest of it is not, neither all of what happened or any of the why.

  • Martha Bartha

    But they look so much alike!

  • Cher

    liar.

  • Cher

    So Carolee tell me why clinton gave him money for years? every christmas. money in the mail box. hundreds. and even some of clinton’s friends said yes he is. When he became prez he stopped. Of course it would be then. Why can’t people just deduce things from common sense. What happened to common sense?

  • Cher

    You know what media doesn’t tell us about black lives matter? That a DEMOCRAT BLACK President killed more African Americans and immigrants than any other president including Bush. Yea. And he deported more than any other president too. Obama. And guess what else about black lives matter? He did nothing at all for systemic racism or private prisons. So he let the country make profits off the black man’s back still and he did nothing. And he walked out of office with An African American’s predominantly black community in Flint Michigan with BROWN WATER. Since 2014 Humans in this country have had brown water to cook, bathe and drink. That’s what our African American president did for African Americans.

  • Joy G

    This is false. The DNA was supposedly done, however Danny never gave a sample. This is a lie and part of the fake news.

  • Est Ban

    No I can accept it but the evidence is far from conclusive for the reasons I noted

  • Est Ban

    It is clear you have a problem understanding logic and disregard facts when they do not support your argument. Jefferson had a brother Randolph with 5 sons all of which were in Monticello from time to time and could have inseminated Hemmings. As such finding the father came from the Jefferson male line is far from conclusive evidence T. Jefferson was the father. Here is a posting that discusses how conclusive the DNA evidence is regarding T Jefferson’s paternity.
    https://www.monticello.org/site/plantation-and-slavery/thomas-jefferson-and-sally-hemings-brief-account

  • Miranda Lee

    Of course you can’t accept DNA as evidence even though a Court of law does.
    Just like those Southern Wives of Slave owners refused to accept their husbands were raping slaves and producing Biracial children.
    Most claimed Biracial children came by through Symbiosis due to the fact White and Black werresidents in close proximity.

    This phenomenon was documented by Abolitionists and travelers to the South alike.

    Denial is a river in Egypt.

  • Marilyn Willett

    did you see the mother? there’s not enough drugs to make clinton have sex with that ”woman”, I’m not a lib, but no no no.

  • Marilyn Willett

    they see a resemblance yeah right but nobody ADMITS Prince Harry looks exactly like James Hewitt who Diana dated for 2 years.

  • Marilyn Willett

    TELL THAT TO HIS BLACK ABSENTEE FATHER.

  • Miranda Lee

    Prince Harry has the same eyes, as Prince Charles and Prince William. He also has the same male pattern baldness. Male pattern baldness is passed on from Father to Son.
    James Hewitt didn’t have it.
    It seems conspiracy theorists only want to see what they want to see.

  • Anna Etters

    The DNA test was never taken….this is a bunch of hogwash! Accuracy in Media my ARSE!

  • Katie

    Right, it wasn’t Bill Clinton’s son, (eye roll). Thats why he is dead. Funny thing that so many people are dying when they are connected negatively to the Clintons. Just as the former Haiti official scheduled to testify is found dead. NOTHING HERE. How shameful the media fails to connect the dots, they are complicit in these deaths (murders).

  • Blu Soulstn

    Interesting point.. Really though the clintons have untold power and money so suing and crushing them would be simple. So why not? Because it will open that door. Nice call ah-dee