Barack Obama’s Global Tax Proposal
AIM Report | By Jonathon Moseley | August 14, 2008
If the contents of legislation could be judged by the title dreamed up by spinmeisters, anything named “Global Poverty Act” would involve noble goals of alleviating poverty.
Barack
Obama’s $65 billion-a-year “Global Tax” proposal is creating a firestorm on the
Internet, sparked by articles by Cliff Kincaid of Accuracy in Media in
February. In response, left-wing supporters of Barack Obama are feverishly
striving to defuse the controversy, attempting to discredit, dismiss, or
diminish the story first revealed by AIM’s Kincaid.
In what may be his
only achievement in national politics, Senator Obama introduced S. 2433, the “Global
Poverty Act,” in 2007. Then, Senator Joe Biden (D-DE) rammed Obama’s “Global
Poverty Act” through his committee as chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations
Committee—without any hearings. S. 2433 is expected to reach the full Senate
floor for debate any day. A similar bill already passed the U.S. House of
Representatives, making final passage a dangerous possibility. The pressure on
President Bush to sign it would be intense, especially from Obama’s supporters
in the media.
If the contents of legislation could be judged by the title dreamed up
by spinmeisters, anything named “Global Poverty Act” would involve noble goals
of alleviating poverty. However, we were taught from childhood not to judge a
book by its cover. We must also not judge legislation by its title.
The Hidden Agenda
Obama’s Global Poverty
Act is in fact a stunning and sweeping step toward socialism and one-world
government. When we look beyond the seductive title, and read the actual
contents, we discover that Obama and Biden are setting America up for
imposition of a global tax, controlled by the United Nations. For the first
time, the U.S.
could be forced to adopt a global tax at the behest of an international body.
The planned amount is 0.7% of America’s
Gross National Product (GNP) or $65 billion per year, in addition to America’s
current foreign aid budget.
Obama’s legislative
record in this regard is so damaging that the left-wing blogosphere has gone
into over-drive to muddy the waters. The left-wing “Media Matters” has gone on
the attack, and others have taken up the chorus. When Senator Biden’s opponent
for election, Christine O’Donnell, revealed Biden’s promotion of Obama’s Global
Tax on Fox News, Media Matters attacked within minutes.
Rather than addressing
the substance of Kincaid’s revelations, Obama’s defenders invent a straw man to
knock down instead. Media Matters argues that S. 2433 does not directly impose
any tax. But Kincaid never said that it did. As Kincaid revealed, S. 2433 is
clearly intended to engineer, or lay the groundwork for, a global tax. Kincaid
never suggested it would happen in a single step. Yet S. 2433 can have no other
long-range purpose.
As Kincaid explained,
the bill does not attach a dollar figure—and does not need to—because that is
contained in the 2002 so-called “Monterrey Consensus,” which grew out of the
2000 Millennium Declaration, which is cited in the bill. Understanding this
critical fact is a simple matter of reading the appropriate U.N. documents. The
sponsors could count on the major media not to do so.
The Millennium
Declaration, which was issued in 2000, specifically called for a “Financing for
Development” conference, which was held in 2002 in Monterrey, Mexico,
and produced the “Monterrey Consensus.” This document committed nations to
spending 0.7 percent of Gross National Product (GNP) on official development
assistance (ODA), otherwise known as foreign aid. It says, specifically, that
“We recognize that a substantial increase in ODA and other resources will
be required if developing countries are to achieve the internationally agreed
upon development goals and objectives, including those contained in the
Millennium Declaration.” It goes on to call for “concrete efforts towards the
target of 0.7 percent” of GNP as ODA and proposes “innovative sources of
finance” to pay for the increased foreign aid, a reference to global taxes.
The Price Tag
Jeffrey Sachs, who ran
the U.N.’s “Millennium Project,” which monitors compliance with and progress
toward these goals, says that the U.N. plan to force the U.S. to pay 0.7 percent of GNP in increased
foreign-aid spending would add $65 billion a year to what the U.S. already
spends. “We are short by $65 billion each year, which may seem like a vast sum,
but it represents just 0.5% of our GNP,” says Sachs.
As Kincaid, using
Sachs’s figures, calculates it, over a 13-year period, from 2002, when the
U.N.’s Financing for Development conference was held, to the target year of
2015, when the U.S.
is expected to meet the Millennium Development Goals, this amounts to $845
billion. And the only way to raise that kind of money, Sachs himself wrote, is
through a global tax, preferably on carbon-emitting fossil fuels.
Obama claims that S.
2433 merely declares U.S.
policy to fight poverty. But if that were true, then S. 2433 does nothing at
all. The U.S.
has already been fighting poverty around the world for many decades. Starting
with the Marshall Plan after World War II, and accelerated by John F. Kennedy’s
idealism, Americans have spent gigantic fortunes on ending poverty globally,
for at least 60 years. Does Obama really not know what the U.S. has
already been doing for decades on the world stage? Why would Obama propose what
the U.S.A.
has already been doing without him?
S. 2433 is clearly
setting the stage for a global tax, by backing the U.S. into a corner. Once the U.S. commits
through international diplomacy to the goal of contributing 0.7% of its GNP and
the Congress enforces this goal through Obama’s legislation, the U.S is on the
road to accepting the global tax to pay for it.
This is the critical
point: S. 2433 mandates that the president actually implement these goals and
not merely discuss them. A future president— possibly a liberal like Obama
himself— would be obligated to actually “make it happen.” Obama’s bill does not
just declare policy. It mandates actual implementation of the $65
billion-a-year “contribution” to foreign aid by the next president. If the U.S.
has already agreed to this through Congress, the final step in international
negotiations over implementation of a global tax will become difficult, if not
impossible, to resist.
No Hearings
Disputes about the real meaning of Obama’s legislation might have been
avoided if Joe Biden hadn’t slipped the bill through without any hearings. If
the goal were innocent, Obama and Biden would have wanted maximum
publicity—even campaign “photo ops.” Instead, they quietly slid the bill
through unnoticed, in a hurry. Why?
Of course, the United States
is already the most generous nation on Earth. S. 2433 is not needed to declare U.S. foreign
policy to fight poverty. Helping poor countries is why the U.S. government priced U.S.
manufacturers and exports out of the market with a strong dollar policy and
encouraged imports of products from poor nations.
Unfortunately, projects to
develop Latin America, for example, turned out
to be like plowing the sea. The cause of poverty was not lack of U.S. funding,
but their socialist governments and unjust legal systems. We must export the
real causes of our success, not just send money. Certainly, the United Nations
will be part of the problem in this, not part of the solution. But Obama seems
to trust the United Nations.
OBAMA PLAYS
REAGAN ON WORLD STAGE
An
interesting contribution to Barack Obama’s campaign shows up in the records of
the Federal Election Commission. Casey Kauffman of Al-Jazeera, who lists his
occupation as a journalist in Doha,
gave the Democratic candidate $500 in February.
Al-Jazeera, which most
U.S.-based cable and satellite providers have rejected for airing because of
its terrorist links and anti-American programming, probably won’t be playing
much of a role in the American presidential campaign. But the contribution is
indicative of the bias that infects the media here and around the world.
The depth of the
deception that is now underway can be understood by analyzing the significance
of Obama’s “I love America” anti-communist foreign policy speech in Berlin,
Germany, in view of the fact that the candidate and his media acolytes continue
to conceal the central role that a Stalinist Communist by the name of Frank
Marshall Davis played in his upbringing.
In Berlin,
Obama almost sounded like Ronald Reagan, who became a strong anti-communist by
fighting them in Hollywood.
“And on the twenty-fourth of June, 1948, the Communists chose to blockade the
western part of the city,” Obama noted. “They cut off food and supplies to more
than two million Germans in an effort to extinguish the last flame of freedom
in Berlin.
The size of our forces was no match for the much larger Soviet Army. And yet
retreat would have allowed Communism to march across Europe.
Where the last war had ended, another World War could have easily begun. All
that stood in the way was Berlin.
And that’s when the airlift began—when the largest and most unlikely rescue in
history brought food and hope to the people of this city.”
Flip-Flop
Obama sounded like a
veteran anti-communist. But in his record has he ever shown hostility to
communism? His remarks were completely at variance with what we know about him.
Obama closely associated with communists for much of his life and career. We’ve
heard about some of them, including communist terrorists Bill Ayers and
Bernardine Dohrn. But one communist that few in the media want to talk about is
Frank Marshall Davis, his mentor and father-figure. Davis
actually wrote a poem in honor of the Soviet Red Army that Obama denounced in Berlin.
The “Red Army” poem
goes beyond hoping for the communists to beat the Nazis in World War II and
hails the Soviet revolution. It says:
“Show the marveling multitudes
Americans, British,
all your allied brothers
How strong you are
How great you are
How your young tree of
new unity
Planted twenty-five
years ago
Bears today the golden
fruit of victory!”
Obama refers to Davis as just “Frank” in
his 1995 book, Dreams From My Father, but does note that he was a
contemporary of black authors Richard Wright and Langston Hughes. What Obama
doesn’t mention is that “Frank” stayed with the Communist Party USA (CPUSA)
while Hughes and Wright broke from it. In fact, Davis was so extreme that he accused Wright
of “treason” for exposing the CPUSA.
Davis’s influence over Obama is demonstrated by the fact
that Obama left Davis in Hawaii, attended socialist conferences and
picked Marxist professors as his friends in college, went to Reverend Jeremiah
Wright’s church with his children, and then launched his political career in
the home of Ayers and Dohrn.
Dohrn’s Bloody Hands
While Ayers gets most
of the attention, it is Dohrn who is more important. She refuses to deny
credible reports that she planted a bomb that killed a San Francisco policeman. The whole story is
detailed in our last AIM Report. But is anybody in the media willing to ask
Obama about her terrorist activities?
While Ayers and
Dohrn and their comrades took instructions and advice from Hanoi
and Havana and even Cuban and Soviet
intelligence operatives, Davis
was even more notorious.
He not only belonged
to the CPUSA when it functioned as an apologist for Stalin, but Davis took the Stalinist
line when Stalin made common cause with Hitler. The Germans at Obama’s speech
might be interested in this aspect of the story. So might an American audience.
We already knew Davis was a Stalinist.
NAACP member Edward Berman testified that “comrade Davis”
tried to take over meetings of the organization in Hawaii “for the purpose of converting it
into a front for the Stalinist line.”
But veteran
anti-communist researcher and author Herbert Romerstein has now brought to our
attention even more damaging information. He points out that Davis was one of the signers of a statement
issued by the League of American Writers in June of 1941 during the Soviet-Nazi
Pact.
It said in part, “We
have warned that America
must be defended not by involvement in this war, or by steps toward
dictatorship, or by pursuing a course of imperialist expansion, but by
preserving peace and expanding democracy on the economic, political and
cultural levels. Today, we must ask whether the present policy of the
administration and the program of big business are not leading us toward war
and fascism in the name of resistance to war and fascism.”
In other words, as
long as the Nazis and the Soviets were allies, Davis
didn’t want the U.S.
to go to war against the Nazis.
The statement asked a
number of questions, including, “How best as writers can we resist the drive
toward war and reaction which threatens our democratic culture?” The statement
is printed on page 973 of Appendix IX of the Special Committee of Un-American
Activities in 1944.
Romerstein comments
that “This is clear support of the Soviet-Nazi Pact by Davis
a short time before June 22, 1941, when Germany
attacked the Soviet Union and the Communist
Party line changed from peace to war.”
The point bears
repeating: once the Soviets came under attack, the CPUSA line, which was
adopted by party member Davis, turned into one supporting war on the Nazis.
This is the man that
Obama’s white grandfather selected as the future candidate’s role model and
mentor.
And yet in Berlin, Obama declared himself on the side of those who
opposed Davis.
“When you, the German people, tore down that wall—a wall that divided East and
West; freedom and tyranny; fear and hope—walls came tumbling down around the
world,” he said.
Davis was an apologist for that tyranny. He read his
“poems” to a teenage Obama and advised him that his white grandmother had a
right to fear black people and that black people had a reason to hate white
people, which certainly helps explain why Obama would eventually end up in
Wright’s church.
Has Obama truly
broken with the forces of international communism, which had so much influence
over him? If the media don’t ask the question, the increasing numbers of those
who know about Davis, Wright, Ayers, Dohrn and other questionable Obama links
and associations will see the media coverage for what the McCain campaign
labels it—a love affair with Obama. In short, the pro-Obama media bias may
backfire in a big way. There is evidence it already is.
Professor Paul Kengor,
author of a book about Reagan’s anti-communism, examined the work that Accuracy
in Media has done on the Obama-Davis relationship and concludes that the
evidence must not be ignored. Yet liberals and “progressives” in the press and
elsewhere ignore, distort or downplay it. Some reporters, like Dana Milbank of
the Washington Post, have treated it as a laughing matter.
Giving Davis
A Pass
Kengor wonders what
the press would think “of, say, a John McCain mentor who had toed the line for
Hitler? I can tell you that I, as a conservative Republican, would be pretty
darned disappointed and would demand some answers. I would not turn it into a
joke. And if McCain did not absolutely, convincingly repudiate it, I absolutely
would not vote for him.”
But when it comes to Obama,
Kengor notes that “The end result is that the bad guys on the communist
far-left, such as the likes of Frank Marshall Davis, continue to get a pass
long after they’ve departed this world, as will those who consider them
mentors. These were extreme leftists who hurt liberalism—who hurt some of the
dearest liberal causes. Davis,
in death, is protected, his dirty work covered up, by a press who must now
protect their anointed one.”
Obama, of course,
is the anointed one, for the U.S.
press as well as reporters for the Arab government-funded Al-Jazeera. Now we
witness the latest phase of the love affair as Obama, with the help of the
media, portrays himself as an anti-communist in the Reagan mode who truly
understands the battle between Soviet tyranny and human freedom and came down
on the right side. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The good news is that
a Rasmussen poll finds that many people aren’t buying it. It found that 49
percent of voters think that reporters are trying to help Obama win in
November.
The Findings
A July 21 release from
the firm declared that “The idea that reporters are trying to help Obama win in
November has grown by five percentage points over the past month. The latest
Rasmussen Reports telephone survey, taken just before the new controversy
involving the New York Times erupted, found that 49% of voters believe most
reporters will try to help the Democrat with their coverage, up from 44% a
month ago. Just 14% believe most reporters will try to help McCain win, little
changed from 13% a month ago. Just one voter in four (24%) believes that most
reporters will try to offer unbiased coverage.”
It also found that
45 percent say that most reporters would hide information if it hurt the
candidate they wanted to win.
What could that
information be? Could it have something to do with Frank Marshall Davis? Or
Bernardine Dohrn? Are there more red skeletons in the closet?
DEAR FELLOW MEDIA WATCHDOG August-B 2008
IN A
STRANGE DEVELOPMENT THAT MAY AFFECT BARACK OBAMA’S presidential run, supporters
of Obama’s childhood mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, are openly debating the
nature and depth of Davis’s
commitment to the Communist Party and his relationship with Obama. This unusual
debate, which is taking place on Obama’s official website, raises the question
once again as to why Obama has not been asked by the major media about this
relationship. Davis was identified as a
Communist Party member by various investigative committees and acknowledged his
party membership in a private letter obtained by John Edgar Tidwell, the editor
of books by Davis.
Clearly, there is an effort underway to sanitize or play down the Obama-Davis
relationship and try to intimidate the major media into not covering it. But it
is unusual, to say the least, that some of this effort is occurring on the
official Obama website. The reaction, which makes the controversy even more
newsworthy and significant, suggests that the truth is seeping out through
other means, mostly in the alternative media, and increasing the pressure at
least on Obama’s supporters to deal with the matter.
UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE
STILL FACING RESISTANCE TO TELLING THE DAVIS STORY FROM some “conservative”
outlets, such as CNSNews.com. I provided Fred Lucas, a reporter for
CNSNews.com, some documents in advance about Davis
and the communist networks in Hawaii and Chicago that influenced
Obama. He interviewed me at length more than two months ago and seemed anxious
to tell the story. But nothing has appeared. I understand the story was killed
by a top editor at the news service. I don’t know exactly who spiked it, but I
suggest you send the enclosed postcard to CNSNews.com editor Terrence Jeffrey
and inquire as to what happened to the Frank Marshall Davis story.
OFFICIAL CONGRESSIONAL
HEARINGS AND INVESTIGATIONS CONFIRM DAVIS’S HISTORY of membership and
involvement with the CPUSA and its fronts, and his activities as a Stalinist.
As late as 1956, Davis
was before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee and refusing to deny his
CPUSA membership. He also refused to deny that he was a member of the faculty
of the communist Abraham Lincoln School
in Chicago.
This is significant because, as researcher Herbert Romerstein notes, the
Commission on Subversive Activities of the Legislature of the Territory of
Hawaii reported on February 28, 1955, that “About November 1950, the communist
party in Hawaii was reorganized on an underground basis…In the new
organization, party groups were to consist of not more than three members.
Groups were identified by numbers (1-10) rather than by names, as formerly.” Among
those identified as having been members of the underground groups were Frank
Marshall Davis and his wife Helen C. Davis.
WHAT’S
ALSO INTERESTING ABOUT THE DAVIS APPEARANCE BEFORE THE SENATE IS THE fact that
his lawyer was Harriet Bouslog, identified as a CPUSA member in the 1959 House
Committee on Un-American Activities report, “Communist Legal Subversion: The
Role of the Communist Lawyer.” Bouslog was identified as a CPUSA member by two
witnesses, both former communists. Bouslog, it turns out, was the star of a
2004 public television program in Hawaii
that completely ignored her documented CPUSA membership and described her as a
‘true advocate and defender of American democratic values.” It noted that her
long-time friend and “mentor” was Harry Bridges, president of the International
Longshoreman’s and Warehouseman’s Union (ILWU), but didn’t mention that Bridges
was a secret CPUSA member.
ONE WHOSE NAME SHOWS UP IN THE CREDITS AS A CONTRIBUTOR OF SOME SORT IS CHRIS Conybeare,
who also served as the producer/writer of a 1988 program about Davis that ignored his CPUSA membership and
activities. The video was released by the Center for Labor Education &
Research, University
of Hawaii - West Oahu
(CLEAR). So it is not surprising that Conybeare, who also functions as the
“secretary general” of something called the World Association of Press
Councils, has attached his name to a press release from the “Honolulu Media
Council” denouncing Accuracy in Media and Bill Steigerwald of the Pittsburgh
Tribune-Review for bringing to light the facts about Davis being a communist
and Obama’s mentor. “We find that there is no substance to these claims,” this
group of would-be censors declared. Ignoring all of the evidence against Davis,
including his service on behalf of the CPUSA and its manipulation of black
Americans for the communist and Stalinist cause, it announced that Davis was a
true “advocate for civil rights in the US.” But there was one truthful bit of
information in the release. Davis
“had many friends, including Barack Obama’s grandfather,” it noted. BINGO. And
that grandfather, Stanley Dunham, picked Davis
as Obama’s mentor. Davis, who died in 1987, became Obama’s black mentor during
the years 1975-1979 primarily because Obama’s black father had deserted the
family and the young Obama needed a father-figure and role model. Dunham made a
bad decision. It’s too bad Obama didn’t describe it as such in his book Dreams
From My Father.
PLEASE
DROP THE ENCLOSED POSTCARD TO THE HONOLULU MEDIA COUNCIL AND ASK that they
discontinue their censorship campaign against Accuracy in Media and tell the
truth about Frank Marshall Davis and the communist network in Hawaii.
WHICH
BRINGS US BACK TO SQUARE ONE: WHEN WILL THE MEDIA ASK OBAMA ABOUT THE
Obama/Davis relationship? And why did he conceal the identity of “Frank” in his
1995 book, Dreams From My Father? I think we are beginning to understand
the reasons for this cover-up. Not only would the identification of “Frank” as
Frank Marshall Davis expose communist influence on a young Obama, it might also
expose those who collaborated with him and tried to whitewash his communist
activities. Davis, it should be noted, was just
one member of a communist network which also included secret CPUSA members Paul
Robeson and labor leader Harry Bridges, who was so deep in CPUSA activities
that Moscow
accepted and designated him as a member of the CPUSA Central Committee. Davis was close friends
with both of them.
SOME OF THE COMMENTS IN
THESE “NOTES” HAVE BEEN INCORPORATED IN A MUCH LONGER “Special Report” that we
posted on the AIM website. If you would like a printed copy, please send us the
other postcard and we will provide that to you. The piece examines the
accelerating attack on AIM by supporters of Frank Marshall Davis in Hawaii and elsewhere. We
knew we would take heat for exposing the communist network that influenced the
possible next president of the United
States. The reason we undertook this
assignment was because our major media have so utterly failed to subject Obama
to the scrutiny he deserves. The pro-Obama media bias is overwhelming. We are not
for or against him; we are in favor of educational information being provided in the interests
of having an informed public. Times like these mean that we have to go back to
our supporters and ask for your support so that we can continue to stand up to
the assault. Can you help us at this time? Will you provide a strong vote of
confidence in the work that we are doing?
116 Comments | Post a Comment
When are you Idiots going to realize, It Doesn’t Matter WHO wins the Election. The New World Order will get one of their Plans implemented. McCain has been given one script and Obama a different one. Either way THEY WIN and America/World Loses.
Dear John:
Thanks for that. The $65 billion figure came from Jeffrey Sachs and the underlying Millennium process. I didn’t calculate it myself. It might have made an interesting extra point to check Sachs’ math and point out that he is either wrong or dissembling. But on the other hand space is limited. But your point is interesting on many levels… these people want to re-engineer our economy without understanding it.
U.S. Liberals = FASCISTS, in the literal sense of the word. If you disagree with them, they’ll “silence” you, cancel committee meetings, impose draconian restrictions of free speech. Take your money, tax your property to the point of virtual confiscation (WHEN YOU CAN NO LONGER AFFORD TO PAY THE TAX BILL)and/or condemn it so that it can be “developed.” Finally, they’ll refuse medical care to an infant that survives an abortion, and in the end, take away your feeding tube, your oxygen, and say it was the “humane” thing to do. WHEN ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO GET YOUR PITCH FORKS ? ! ! !
I haven’t run numbers for the totals through 2015, but the $845B probably didn’t account for US GDP growth either. I would assume US GDP growth will slow somewhat through 2010 (perhaps going negative in 2009), but come back up to around the 2.5% - 3.5% it’s been for the last 6 years or so.
I can’t find enough people willing to lay down the remote control, cell phone, or mouse to take note of America crumbling under their feet.
I am 74: post Depression, pre-WWII. I knew a better America, and find it so heart-breaking to see what it has become.
I always figured if America was lost, “defeated” it would be from a superior military force. I never had a slim glimmer of thought that it would rot to the core from within. But it has.
My heart goes out to the families who have lost their loved ones in Iraq, and the to the severely maimed veterans of this “war.” I support them. I actively do, because while THEY were “defending OUR rights, freedoms,” so few at home were picking up the phone or pen to call their Sen./Rep., trying to “stand by them” in this “fight” to defend THEIR freedoms/rights, also.
No. I don’t the the average American IS smarter than a 5th grader, and too lazy to learn.
Personally, I lay at the feet of the common media the coming demise of this nation, and hope to see Pelosi and a few others wearing a bhurka.
Good bye, America. You will go down in history as just another short-lived Democracy. God gave us a wonderful nation, and it seems America has now flipped Him the finger. Truly, He is full of mercy, but God will NOT be mocked, and this nation has surely done THAT.
Is all HE has to do is to turn His face from us, and we’ll do it to ourselves. May He somehow
forgive us who trust in Him.
Well, well, well, and well…Here we have a muslim heading for the white house with over half of America so happy. bowing like he is a Messiah. Too much homework for someone to say he is NOT. How many honest reports does people have to have and then of course The G-d of Israel tells us too. Now we have so many of the 545 in gov to control all our money and take our liberty, freedom, and turn our backs on real Alli’s, say Georgia, while our money aids the enemy, trains and nation builds. War has weakened us and we no long own America. How dare anyone sell a inch of it. Homelss Vets, looking for medical. homes foreclosers jobs overseas illigals getting free everything and now citizenship too while the dead beat churches support that lawlessness too. People in America getting more desperate and hungry while this jerk like satan coming as a angel of light as G-d warned, and not even a citizen of the U.S. 12 billion in debt that Daubi and China and shared with Islam owns our debt. And now we have the U.S.Britian and France doing nothing while Russia threatens Georgia and now POland again..and they do nothing , just like in Oct of 1938???? I say shame on them and one day because we did not stop commies doing this, and knowing many are on our soil in U.S. The last big war will be soon, because we let wimps run us. NO one wants to admit jihad is here too. Is it fear or are they all a part of it so the ten commie Islamic can rule the world and make us all guppie’s Proverbs 22:7, where G-d said the rich would rule the poor…And in the meantime, many do know for one what is going on and talking and sharing information won’t cut it..If America doesn’t stand up and remember we are a REPUBLIC and kick these devils our of our gov and put in some who will stand on our constitution we are finished. France , Britian and the U.S. should have put a dam stop before anyone died in Georgia and condeming Russia on TV they don’t care !!! sending aid for something that could have been stopped day one..Russia needs a bomb on all its connections that make them able to do this, we all know where and what. and why did Bush or Clinton not hit Iran first yrs ago..?? they are shite muslims, and he goes into Iraq, takes down the sunni gov and replaces it with Irans tribes. HOw stupid do we have to be. How many dots before the connection can be done. Talking heads on Fox, Cnn and all the rest lie like dogs and Islam owns some of them, even lots of Fox..and in the meantime trashing Israel and betraying Her too. Now the climax is coming,,as the enemy wants Israel to give up HIS HOLY HILL…and G-d promises to destroy them and all the naions who try as HE SAID this is somehting that HE will not let happen..For those who don’t see why nations error..then look to see what the ememy is doing to G-d’s chosen..He won’t be mocked…The real shaking is going to start…while most just talked or went back to sleep..soon they will find out using Israel always as the scrape goat, believing all the lies, you too will find out what real death and destruction is..and like G-d said, I will sent the enemy like locaust and hey we are inviting them over our borders and aiding and helping our destruction come fasters…By the way…G-d calls them heathen. an tells us to remove the evil men from us till we can see their arm no more. Has nothing to do with love your neighbor as this is war,,take a look back in history even in scripture on how G-d helped the Jews kill thousands..there is nothing new under the sun and what was will be. for you all who think this world can have peace..forget it. and G-d is coming with the sword to make war as the LION of Judea…but then why would you bleive that..your preachers who will get double punishment for not teaching all the scripture has not told you..but many will be destroyed from lack of knowlege and many will find out they will never replace Israel in G-d’s heart and that iwll be where HE sets up His Everlasting KINGDOM, which some of you may not have a part..Genesis 12:3
John Galt
It is my understanding that the $65 billion dollar figure comes from what would be *added to what we’re already paying in foreign aid* (not including the generous donations made by private American citizens when natural disasters occur around the world; America is the most generous country in the world in this respect).
Two rules I always follow: If an issue involves the UN or Jimmy Carter…RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY!
While most may not remember what happened 200 years ago, anybody stating an opinion here will (or should) remember the UN’s “Oil for Food” scandal, which followed the pattern: corruption by administrators of some “helpful” program (including Kofi Annan’s son; check!), most of the aid goes to the dictators (here, Saddam, who made billions) in charge or food given to their militaries (in N Korea, the military gets fed, while the peasants eat grass and tree bark, with reports of cannabalism; this is part of the pattern, although not part of the Oil for Food scam, ie, typical), while the people who really need help get peanuts (or executions, limbs hacked off, raped, etc).
The UN serves no useful purpose, but has a high cost. The US occasionally refuses to ante up without some results, but the UN remains a social club (and spy base) for anti-American countries, with the countries drop-dead guilty of ignoring human rights for their citizens sitting on the UN’s “Human Rights Committee.”
The difference between truth and fiction: fiction must make sense.
Neither Russia nor France have any business being on the Security Council: Russia is the country we (as well as Georgia) need to be secured from, where France’s “experience” in Security wasn’t apparent in the 20th Century. The French continued to put Jews on Germany-bound trains after being liberated by a US-led force.
Perhaps Obama would meet with Putin with no pre-conditions over their recent oil-based invasion of Georgia.
Russia’s stated reason for invading Georgia is preciseley the reason Hitler gave for invading Czechoslovakia. (No, I couldn’t spell that, but Google is great for a quick spell check if you’re even close.) The latter was what resulted in Neville Chameberlain’s “peace in our time” disaster. (Chamberlain died about a year later, but not before admitting that Sir Winston had been right all along.)
Fred Miles, #2, is on the money!
And, if the House and Senate approve Obama’s bill, then our battle is with Congress! And, if Congress is so out of touch with the majority of American citizens that they would pass something like this - - then, as Miles says, there’s no hope!
Arguing over the differences between Obama and McCain is like arguing over whether you’d rather be run over by an 18-wheeler or a freight train.
“... Two rules I always follow: If an issue involves the UN or Jimmy Carter…RUN AWAY! RUN AWAY! ...”
LOL! Exactly!
Jimmuh should stick to building furniture and helping build houses, even though some of his furniture is as lame as his politics. At least his furniture will limit the damage to those who chose to use it.
Here we go again - sigh! The discussion hasn’t even ended from Cliff Kincaid’s last essay of about three or four days ago, and now we start again - 
Though the anti’s of Jonathon Moseley’s article have not weighted in yet - rest assured the bombardment will start soon. He and AIM are correct though, there has certainly been a concerted effort to silence all of this, as I have never seen the comments on any AIM article continue for so long before this. In fact, as AIM releases each article on the association of Osamabama with Davis, the comments section gets longer and longer - I expect that this one will actually surpass Cliff’s article of a few days ago AND that will be an accomplishment as that one is STILL going.
Even Fox News has steered clear of this, just like MSM media whom we already know are the Obama cheerleaders. In Fact, that would make for an excellent cartoon? Cartoonists? here is your chance, show a group of cheering cheerleaders each labelled CBS, NBC, ABC, NY Times, LA Times, etc, with the gimme an O - Oh, gimme a S - Es, gimme an AMABAMA. Sadly, I am beginning to think that Fox needs to be included in this - maybe as a midget cheerleader? That is growing?
Thank you for the info, Mr Moseley, that the House had already passed Obama’s “We Are America’s Traitors Act” - I must have missed that, as I thought it was just in the Senate at present. I would greatly appreciate having a list of those in the House that were supporters and voted for it - perhaps? by State and Congressional District? Or at least give me the House Act # and I can trace it - I guess I was sleeping through that - pays to stay awake as America’s enemies sneek their treason through the Congress, I guess!
Keep getting the word out Mr Moseley and Mr Kincaid, and maybe by election day America WILL be informed about the treason of Obama becoming President - you are gaining, but yes it is slow, so many are trying to bury it - but Mr Kincaid’s last article did make most of the other sites I view daily, and if we can get it going on Fox with a splash - it may actually make it out to Americans before November - and I can say this - if it does - Obama is toast - even among Democrats - because I still believe that most Democrats in America are ignorant of how FAR to the left their party really is - in comparison to Republicans of the right who certainly know how far to the left the Republican leadership is becoming.
The next few days should be interesting as I sit back reading the comments to this article - and ENTERTAINING - better than Hannity and that idiot Colmes any day
“Fred Miles”—It most certainly DOES MATTER who gets elected! If you actually believe that the likes of a John McCain would be naive enough to be tricked into promoting a New World Order agenda, or that he would be a willfull participant in the same, you sir have a serious gap in your ability to recognize a man who lives “Duty, Honor, Country”, and who epitomizes devoted American Patriotism! Comments like yours insult the man John McCain, and strike at the core of everything he stands for, and all that he represents today and into the future! Your comment is baseless and brainless.
Sorry Alex, tis you who need to do some homework.
McCain and myself are Vietnam Veterans. As such, when he has slammed Veterans, he is open to scrutinity/criticism by Veterans. So unless you are a Vietnam Veteran as well… suggest you enlist!
This is nothing new to liberals! Ushure in a global poverty tax on Americans and send it where? Why to those who we as liberals choose to, that’s who! The best thing you can give to a poor person is a job, not a handout. Get this message out there about Barrack Obama and vote for John McCain! He has never once in 26 YEARS ever let ANY earmark slide through and has even vetoed good bills just because earmarks and pork barrel spending measures were attached to them! I know, I live in Arizona.
If you don’t want to be tricked into a new world agenda then no matter who you elect you must let them know how you feel! These people in Congress are not mind readers! We MUST keep on top of them and remember that the power is with us, the people! Get involved and stay involved! Write letters, send emails, phone do whatever you can to make your voice heard and keep at it and don’t stop!
“http://www.youtube.com/v/pKFKGrmsBDk&hl=en&fs=1”
No thanks, Fred. I don’t need to enlist. I did my time, both enlisted and commissioned. I am a retired Army officer and a disabled veteran. As for Senator McCain and his agenda, we can “agree to disagree”. I’m not sure how your logic, regarding his Viet Nam experience, makes him even REMOTELY Obama-like in his politics and anything New World Order. Think it and preach it all you want. I respectfully disagree and will continue to contend that a vote for McCain is FAR LESS DANGEROUS than a vote for a Socialist disguised (poorly, I might add) as a Democrat.
No one candidate will satisfy the needs of everyone, but like I said above, your going to have to keep on them to get your voice counted! McCain is a penny pinching tightwad and that is one of his best points. He has never waivered on this, not once ever regardless of the Obama propaganda machine.
The video in nthe link from my sign on name is one of the best I have seen yet, please click on it (mrbenz7) or paste the link into your browser from my above post!
Call congress at 1-202-224-3121 and you can access your states representatives from there.
Tell them “NO” on S 2433, the globval poverty tax bill and “NO” on any bill even somewhat resembling the fairness doctrine! This will be a limitation on freedom of speech!
You should tell your congressman to vote yes on HR 2905, the Broadcaster Freedom Act which would put a stop to ANY re-implemantation of the Fairness Doctrine! This House Resolutuion is sponsored by Mike Pence and Nancy Pelosi refuses to let it come to the floor for a vote!
Never before have I ever seen a Nation so at the point of destruction from liberal lunacy! It we don’t fight back and hard, we deserve whatever we get! There is even a clause in the Global Poverty Tax bill that would OUTLAW guns if we are stupid enough to let it slide!
You want to see real tax and spend government? If Obama is elected we will have one party rule, as the Democratic Party will control the Executive and Legislative branches, and when Obama appoints his Supreme Court justices (2 or 3) and they breeze thru the hearings, the Judicial branch as well. A vote for McCain, as distasteful as it may seem to some, is a vote for what the Founding Fathers intended, specifically, Checks and Balances. My philosophy is simple; Democratic Congress? Vote Republican for President. Republican Congress? Vote Democratic for President. Plus, never never never vote for the incumbent! That is true term limitations and will curtail the corruption of an entrenched bureaucracy. God Bless America.
A vote for McCain my be distasteful for some, but that can be a good thing! Since he is the Maverick and does not vote strictly along party lines, then as a conservative he has veto power. This is what I see as an example of checks and balances of power.
The Nomination of liberal Supreme Court justices is what worries me more than anything else! Obama has only passed one bill in the Senate and yet he has only voted “present” 143 times in his term!
That isnt representing your constituents or fighting for what’ you believe in, it’s protecting your position for the sake of your own lofty goals and ambitions!
Barack Obamas $65 billion-a-year Global Tax proposal that they want to call a contribution is bunk…it’s not a contribution when it’s ripped out of our pockets.
That is where it’s coming from.. our hard earned money .. he plans to hand out to any country in the name of poverty..I’m a firm believer in “charity starts at home”. I am all for helping those in need.. but I would like a say in where that help goes…. is it going to the lady down the road that is working and trying to feed her 3 kids.. or is it going to the one across the street that refuses to work and sits home all day smoking pot? I’m really not into providing pot for the terminally lazy.
There is plenty of poverty right here at home.. that should be addressed first before he starts saving he World!
Another thing.. if the United Nations is “for it” you can bet it’s not in the best interest of you and I…No one should trust the United Nations!
To; mrbenz76…..my point exactly!! The real danger is a Supreme Court that has a liberal majority, as the Heller case affirming our 2nd Amendment rights passed by a slim 5-4 vote, and can just as easily be overturned by an “Obama” court. The next President will propbably appoint at least 2 if not 3 justices, to say nothing of nominating circuit and appeals court judges. With a rubber-stamp Democratic House and Senate, welcome to the Union of American Socialist Republics (UASR). Remember, Rome was also for a time a Republic, but was taken over by the tyranny of Caeserianism. Fortis cadere, cadere non potest !!
Yes, absolutely right that charity begins at home! How about the people in Iowa that feed up who have to recover from those floods? I’d rather help them than someone who sits around all day smoking pot!
You bet I’m a conservative, but I’ll help those who need it get back on their feet, not those who don’t believe in a hard work ethic!
For those of us who have posted here and want to converse more, can I suggest the Conservatives forum?
Here is the address you can put into your browser! We MUST get together and I believe this forum is a great place to do so!
http://www.conservativesforum.com/cgi-bin/conservatives-forum/YaBB.pl
Become a member if your not already so we can share ideas and strategies as well as get to know each other!
I’m mrbenz7 there! I hope to see you all there!
Alex, In many ways.. precisely the Point. Both Obama and McCain have esencially sold themselves to the forces of AIPAC and The Corporate.
Remember what The Oath you took said? “Protect,Defend and Preserve The Constitution of The United States of America”...
Neither McCain or Obama have that in Their Agenda. Let alone people like Gonzales,Alito, Pelosi,Feinstein, Kerry,Kennedy,Murdoch,Savage,O’Reilly,Limbaugh or “Chevron contracts in Burma” Rice, Even Forget about Colin “Kept his ear to the Politics” Powell. They ALL are out for the Dollar at any/everyones expense upto and including ones Death. There is only One person
who has said it, “If it’s Not in The Constitution, NO”. Ron Paul is the only one who is even remotely close to being worthy of the Office of the President.
BTW, Remember when G.W. did his stunt before The Washington Press Club dinner? You know the ” Nope no WMDs here”, That was the Most Denigrating insult ever to the Men and Women who Ever Served in Uniform and especially to those who are in Iraq and Afghanistan today.
Salute.
Fred, I don’t believe that neither Obama or McCain don’t have the interest of the country at heart, not after tonight upon hearing both of these men speak at the SaddleBack Church when questioned by Pastor Rick Warren, the author of “The Purpose Driven Life”.
Senator McCain pointed out how the decision to not get let out of prison early and before most of the rest of the soldiers who were there longer than him has affected the decisions he made from then on in his life and just what personal sacrifice really means and really is.
Obama gave me no such feelings about putting the needs of the country ahead of his goals and desires for the Nation to the same intent that John McCain did. And let’s not forget that it is Businesses, Corporations and Entreprenuers that will deliver on the problems of new energies and the technologies of tomorrow that we will all benefit from.
For those who didn’t see this interview tonight, I hope it is repeated on Fox News or any other channel. It is worth your time to stop what you are doing and note the vast difference between these two!
No matter what gets proposed by a U.S. Rep or Senator - - it still takes a majority of the House and Senate to approve it and a President to sign it, as well as the Supreme Court to approve its consitutionality. That’s a long, L-O-N-G way beyond any individual “proposing” a certain action.
If the Democrats get a majority in the House and Senate, you can be they will ram this proposal down our throats for their own lofty goals faster than you or I can spit! This proposal even has a clause to ban guns! Do you want to klnow how to enslave the populace? Force them into compliance and take away their means to fight it too!
Communism and socialism should be defeated, one liberal at a time!
Whichever candidate will win, the debate and bickering on what they will or will not do will never stop.
Fred, Fred, Fred!!! Are you STILL spouting that meaningless rhetoric? I thought you finally came around to the REALITY that few things in this world are LESS similar than a Socialist (Obama) and a follower of Democracy—whether a Democrat, Republican, or Independent) like McCain. To suggest or outright state that an Obama Administration would be no different than a McCain Administration is pure ignorance. Obama is a Socialist disguised as a Democrat. McCain is patriotic champion for Democracy. They are closer in skin color than they are in political belief!
Alex….. McCain is a Patriotic champion for Democracy? I presume that you have failed as both Enlisted and Officer endeavors. When has the Pleage of Alligance ever said…. “And to the Democracy for which it stands”.... Tis “Republic for which it stands”....
Both O Bama AND McCain have Pleaged their alligance to Israel and Not America. They Both are Trotsky Communists and are Not Fit to lead this Nation any further than The Out House.
Fred—Apart from the fact that my military career has NOTHING to do with my (or your or anyone’s) ability to assess politics, I had a highly successful military career both as an enlisted soldier, and as an OSC-commissioned officer. I was promoted NINE TIMES during my career. You?
I hope your career was successful too, and I hope you now make a living as something other than a political pundit. If not, you ought to consider reenlistment.
Thank you mrbenz7! I have enjoyed your posts very much. You speak sensibly and intelligently on a topic of paramount importance to us all. This country needs a lot less passionate partisianship and a lot more people like you—people willing to discuss the issues based upon FACT rather than emotion. I share your grave concern about what is clearly a well-planned attempt to inject socialism into America. How anyone could conclude otherwise ... after doing their homework on Senator Obama ... is beyond me. The only accolade I can give Obama is that his has a mastery of saying nothing with eloquence. Our young people like his charisma, but their youth (and ignorance of history) prevents them from knowing that charisma can be dangerous. Hilter and Castro had charisma, and look what happened to their “sheep”. Keep up your GREAT posts! (Before Fred corrects me, that was a typo in my previous post. It is OCS, not OSC. If not for dyslexia, maybe I would have been promoted a few more times!) LOL
Thanks Alex! Sometimes it gets hard not be be depressed about these things. This new generation of sheep scare me, but we’ll just keep
Defeating socialism and communism…1 liberal at a time!
janniej, I totally agree with you. Poverty is here. Start at your home before others.
It’s good to see that at least some people are talking about this legislation. Obama and Biden have been sneaking it through for months.
What the article makes no mention of….at least as far as I could see, is the civilian military that the legislation calls for. It’s an army, composed of civilians, governed by the federal government, strong as our national military.
You have to ask yourself what it would be formed for. It’s a good guess that it will be needed to confiscate small arms…which is also called for in the legislation. If you are interested, please do a search on S.2433. You will be amazed at what is happening while our backs are turned.
There is no question but that Obama’s America will not be the America our young men and women are sacrificing their lives for.
This is one of the best links I’ve found yet to offer a real look into Barrack Obama! HGe has lied so many times to gun owners that we cannot take him seriously anymore. Put this link into your browser if it is inactive! It’s worth a read!
S.2433 wants a civillian force as strong as the military. what could this force possibly be used for? How about confiscating small arms from law abiding citizens?
Why not go and get the NRA browser? It’s free and you can show your support for all gun owners everywhere!
Here’s a no holds barred article on the real Barrack Obama
What does everyone think of McCain now that Sarah Palin is on the ticket? I love her, she is great in my book1
I also loved seeing Jordan Sparks, the one who won American idle who is from right here in Mesa Arizona, defend those in Hollywood who are wearing a “Promise ring”. She closed with” Maybe some people out there find that there are better things in life than being a tramp! I don’t believe she said it, but it took guts!
A bit of common sense from Thomas Paine!
http://www.youtube.com/v/pKFKGrmsBDk&hl=en&fs=1
I’m trying to figure out just how a McCain and an Obama presidency will be different. In the big things in this country.
Certainly, if Obama is after the guns, that’s a big minus.
Yes, his civilian army sounds frightening - but then Blackwater is frightening as well.
McCain won’t be a globalist? - then why is he for amnesty and protecting illegal immigration.
It is a big part of diluting this country and creating such a burden on the working people of this country. It is a big component of bringing us into more and more trade deals that blurr our sovereignty.
If we don’t fix illegal immigration, having a country won’t be a concern. If and when he or Obama gives them the right to vote, legally, they can control quite a number of the votes in Washington.
No man/woman who believes that illegal immigration is a good thing, an OK thing, even an inevitable thing is truly thinking about the future of this country and it’s people.
Because John McCain was willing to admit he was wrong on what he thought the people really wanted when he was phoned, faxed and sent letters about the Illegal immigrant issue! Obama will do whatever he wants and has proved it by voting “present” to avoid and evade any controversial bill while protecting his own position!
Barack Obama has still refused to even consider that ILLEGAL ALIENS are driving down wages, smuggling humans and drugs into our communities and our schools and that we have a problem! He has been totally innaccessible when it comes to even listening to the people when we point out the problems we are having in out own communities!
Barack Obama has proposed a global poverty tax, S.2433 on American Households that would amount to $8500.00 or .7% of our GDP! It also contains a provision to remove the rights of the people to own firearms, something that the UN has been pushing for in America by influencing our elections! This money would then be given freely to brutal dictators like Hugo Chaves and oversight would be by the UN, the same UN where Kofi Annon stole millions of dollars for his own benefit and no one elses and still refueses to pay any of the money back even after being caught red handed!
If anyone has any doubts about the real Barack Obama they should read “The Case Against Barack Obama” by David Freddosso!
Which alternative do you want to deal with? One who will tell us all what to do and remove our ability to fight back like Barack Obama or one you may not always agree with who will listen to us and remember who he is serving like John McCain??
No he isn’t! I don’t agree with his proposal about paying a fine and submitting to a background check as a condition of staying here, but it’s better than anything else so far except deportation.
We changed his mind about Amnesty after letters and phone calls from us convinced him this is a National Security issue! The point is that John McCain is accessible to the needs of the people and Barack Obama is not.
If we elect our officials and expect them to take care of us when they never hear from us then who is to blame when they listen only to the lobbyists? These people are not mind readers and if we just stay stuck in our tracks in front of our TV’s and play with our toys, what right do we have to expect service from those we employ?
If you don’t like what is going on in your community and don’t feel as if you matter to those you elected to do a job, then run for office yourself! I’m going to and I’ll be on the ballot in my community!
I’m not arguing for Obama, I’ve been frightened of him since the first time I saw him.
No, illegal immigration is not something I would try to defend McCain on. They ALL, from the President on down, know the problems, they know the burden, they know the damage that has been caused, and they ALL know the wishes of the people. Yet, so far how many have stepped up to the plate and actually started doing something??
No, John McCain is in step with Obama on illegal immigration.
How about trade?
The war - McCain is pro war - that bothers me.
Outsourcing jobs - how does McCain stand on that? I don’t know, truly.
How about imports and the sweet trade deals? I haven’t heard him on that one either.
There are many things we need to fix in this country - but first we need to fix the things that are going to keep us afloat and free.
Those are - illegal immigration, outsourcing, trade deals where we come off a distant second place, and the war and involvement in foreign countries’ business.
Then goodness the financial situation -
Then we can get down to the problems of healthcare, education, energy, crime, drugs, etc.
Many of those will be minimized if we enforce our laws and the illegals return home.
No, John McCaijn is not in step with Obama in Illegal immigration! Obama completely opposes any kind of fines or background checks on illegals. He has said outright that this would treat them like second class citizens! What he has toally forgotten is that these people are not citizens at all!
McCain is not pro war, but he believes like I do that we cannot pull out until the goal has been achieved and I completely agree. I have relatives in the military! Has everyone already forgotten seeing the World Trade Center buildings come down and forgotten that we are at war whether we like it or not?
Or that it has been Liberal appeasement that caused the problems we are facing now?
Barack Obama’s stand if you can call it that on doubling the capitol gains tax when our economy has been corrupted by greed will only push us into another grear depression when those who have investments, hedge funds, retirement accounts and 401K IRA’s pull their money out so they don’t lose their equity to the government!
The result will be the biggest stock market crash this century! John McCain has it right again, keep taxes low, create a commission like the 9/11 commission to find out where regulation and oversight will prevent this from happening again because we are in a never been seen before ball game now! Barack Obama says we know how we got here? Really? Top economists that has made Nation’s economies their lifes work don’t have a complete answer yet!
John McCain has consistently oppos4ed those sweet trade deals that our trading partners take advantage os us on while we continue to pay the price for. I know, Ive seen him in action. I live here in Arizona and have seen him in the local legislature!
I don’t always like John McCain and where he stands, but he is accessible! That is still the biggest point well made for me! He will listen to you and respond back to you. I know, I have talked to him several times and send him letters often, not just when he does something I don’t like, but when he does something I approve of!
I have no doubt that his running mate, Sarah Palin hasn’t forgotten where she came from and will be telling him where the people stand on a regular basis. She has made it clear she will remain accessible to the people she has been elected to serve!
mrbenz
For what office are you running? What is your platform? Why did you decide to run?
On the subject of illegal immigration, the people in WAshington have been getting an earful about this for decades. Truly they have. It may be fairly new to some, but it is old hat to a goodly number of us in this country.
Also, the operative word here is ‘illegal’. That means against the law.
What is it about ‘illegal’ they don’t understand? What exactly do we need to tell them?
Then maybe I’m giving McCain more credit than you are in some instances. I happen to think he is moderately intelligent, knows the laws concerning coming to this country, paying taxes, not stealing ID from others, not driving without a license, etc. Somehow I think he knows those. I don’t have to remind him.
If you are saying, which I believe is true, that he would take money from corporations to continue to allow our laws to be broken and monies taken from taxpayers to pay for illegals upkeep, then that sort of proves, he’s not a very honorable man.
I do not want the government to ‘take care of’ me. I want them to make laws that are beneficial to this country and it’s people. Don’t work to circumvent those laws because it means more money from backers. I expect them to demand those laws be enforced.
I do wish you good luck in your race.
Should we have to remind our lawmakers what our laws are and that they should be enforced
We are talking the invasion into this country of from 20-50 million foreigners, an open border over which anything and everything can - and does come.
What exactly do you think they do not know about this?
So we can’t deport them - that is false. If we do not have the ability to put out of this country people who do not belong here, then we are no longer a country.
But, according to politicians, we can’t deport them, but we can count them, fine them, and do a background check (remember it would have to go back into a foreign country)?
Whose going to pay for all that?
So what are we going to do with the ones who refuse to pay the fines? Deport them, or ignore them?
What are we going to do with those who do not pass a background check? Deport them or ignore them?
Mr. McCain is not the first politician to use other words in lieu of amnesty - but amnesty by any other name is still amnesty.
I decided to run for a local government office within my county. I don’t believe that John McCain would take money from corporations to make those in enforcement look the other way so we can import more illegals, in fact he opposes our own Prop 202 which would weaken E-Verify.
John McCain has supported local propositions to enable ICE to cooperate with local law enforcement right here in Phoenix. We are ground zero and just recently it became important to everyone why this measure is so important. We had another American citizen killed when an armed group of thugs dressed up as police stormed a local drug dealers house and fired off 100 rounds of ammunition within a school zone.
Yes, I would rather see illegals deported at all costs, but I feel the same way about liberals!
My first choice for Republican Presidential Candidate would have been Colin Powell.
That’s exciting.
I love the Phoenix area. My daughter lived there for about 6 years. We spent a wonderful 9 months there living in one of those ‘Old Fogey Fortresses’ in Mesa. We were ‘sunbirds’, came in April and left in Dec.
Again, good luck.
I do believe that John McCain would take money to look the other way.
How else do you explain that he has not demanded enforcement of the laws that would fix the problems?
If he had demanded laws be enforced when the problem first began, we wouldn’t be debating or needing E-verify.
If we simply prosecuted employers, dropped illegals from social services, etc, etc., they would go home. E-verify wouldn’t even need to be discussed.
They come to make money. They didn’t come to become citizens. They cannot make money if employers are afraid to hire them. They cannot keep as much money if they are refused social welfare - per the law.
When we were in Phoenix, we needed a local bank, as my husband needed to have some checks directly deposited to his account.
We decided to use a large bank that had branches in Texas and one with which we already had had an account for many years. I am not sure why, but the banking laws did not allow us to simply use our account from the Texas bank, although we could make payments, and deposit into our Texas account there. It was strange. So - we opened a new account. The first one we have opened in many years. My husband told them he wanted a signature card for me. Oh, no!!! I had to come in, in person, bring two ID’s, a SS and picture ID and sign in person in front of them. I declined.
Now imagine my anger when a couple of months later, I saw a large banner, in Spanish, proudly announcing they would accept the Matricula card as ID to open a checking account!!
They could and did bring up my signature with the branch in Texas, and could have made a comparison. Yet, they refused to do that. They would, however, take a document issued by a foreign government proving pretty much that the person is an illegal.
Had he, and other politicians been willing to do as they should, the travesty of the Matricula CArd would never have happened.
These problems have been apparent for 30 years now - certainly in AZ. Some states could pretend ignorance, but not the border states.
How else do you explain his trying to get amnesty by us before?
Again, John McCain is a smart man, he knows the problems, he knows the costs borne by the citizens of this country, he knows the destruction caused by illegal immigration. Anything less than demanding loud and often that our laws be enforced is aiding and abetting.
While I am not agreeing with those called liberals about much of anything, I don’t equate them to illegals.
Who were these thugs?
Constitutional Amendments that will save us from ourselves:
1. Line-Item Veto for POTUS
2. Term-Limits for every branch and every level of government
3. Federal Balanced Budget
4. ALL Campaign surpluses go to Federal Government to cover costs of protecting the candidates.
5. Banning the acceptance of lobbyist funds of any kind.
Allen,
That would certainly set us on the right path.
Now all we have to do is get those Congresscritters to agree to cut their own throats - financially speaking, of course.
You know, though, that we could enforce our own term limits, if we would just get together and do it.
The rest - we might get done - if we first do the ‘vote them all out’ scenario.
Ladytexan, while I can agree with you on may of your points, John McCain was alone at fighting Illegal Immigration for years because the public did’nt wake up untill it made media headlines1 The Biased media does not want strict immigration policy and how they report the news is like leading the public around by the nose!
These thugs in Phoenix who shot up the neighborhood and the man they killed was a citizens and a drug dealer!
But you’re not hearing about any of the great things John McCain has done because of media bias!
Here is a good example of this and if this link doesn’t work, click on my name! We wouldn’t be going through this right now if the Congress had listened to Allan Greenspan and JOHN MC CAIN!!
This is proof that the Democrats are RESPONSIBLE for the financial market collapse!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0
While I like the Term Limits idea myself because it would help us get rid of members of Congress out to Scr*w us, but it would also make us get rid of the good ones as well! I’m not for this for that reason and this is the reason I decided to run myself on a Conservative platform!
I believe in FISCAL Conservatism first and things like the homosexual marriage agenda last. We are all in trouble if we don’t get spending under control and Government spending is what is choking our economy right now!
The only way for us to get the truth out is to get involved and come to grips with the fact that news organisations like NBC/MSNBC are NOT our friend and have a heavy bias in skewing the truth!
Ladytexan, while I can agree with you on may of your points, John McCain was alone at fighting Illegal Immigration for years because the public did’nt wake up untill it made media headlines1 The Biased media does not want strict immigration policy and how they report the news is like leading the public around by the nose!
These thugs in Phoenix who shot up the neighborhood and the man they killed was a citizens and a drug dealer!
But you’re not hearing about any of the great things John McCain has done because of media bias!
Here is a good example of this and if this link doesn’t work, click on my name! We wouldn’t be going through this right now if the Congress had listened to Allan Greenspan and JOHN MC CAIN!!
This is proof that the Democrats are RESPONSIBLE for the financial market collapse!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aSKSoiNbnQY0
mrbenz7,
I know you want to believe in John McCain, that’s OK, but he has been open border, pro illegal all along.
He has been in Washington some years, and he has been well-known and respected by the people of this country and has some clout in Washington, I’m thinking.
Now how exactly has he used those assets to fight illegal immigration? He hasn’t.
Think about it. Think about the difference in this country today, if just 5 years ago, John McCain had written his constituents, gone on TV, written editorials, made speeches on the floor, had town hall meetings - alerting his constituents and this country to the true problems of illegal immigration.
What if he had been very vocal, demanding that the federal government enforce the laws already on the books? Then what if he had chided states and cities to enforce their laws - across the board - the same laws for illegals as for citizens?
If he had given them facts and figures concerning-
The true number here
The burden on our infrastructure
The lowering of wages for others
The loss of jobs for citizens
The increased taxes to provide for them
The harm to our education system
The harm to our social services
The rise in cost of auto insurance because they don’t carry insurace
The gang problem that came with them
The drug problem that came with them
The diseases they bring
The siphoning off of monies from this country’s economy that is being sent back to Mexico
The number of criminals who cross the border to escape Mexico justice and live among us,
The rise in crime. AZ is one of the few states that I hear that discussed to any degree
If he had done that, joined with other like-minded lawmakers, influenced others - the landscape in this country today would be very, very different.
So have we heard any of that from McCain? I haven’t. All I hear is ‘a pathway’ or ‘all God’s children’ nonsense.
You can respect the man for many things, but please don’t turn a blind eye to the truth and I beg you for the good of the country - don’t try to convince people he is anything by pro-illegal.
Do you have a link to the story of the thugs. I am truly interested as I do love the Phoenix area and we still have a connection there.
Both parties are responsible for this financial debacle - and I’m thinking members of both parties benefitted from it.
Please, anyone living in AZ could see what was going on - there and Las Vegas. Those dirt dauber houses were being thrown up overnight and tagged with astromical prices, bought and sold and bought and sold by speculators. Then the mortgage companies passing our irresponsible mortgages to irresponsible people.
It wasn’t hard for anyone to see the truth - and both parties knew what was happening.
mrbenz7,
I’m wondering who are the ‘good’ ones in Washington?
Think about it, we have a huge incumbency rate - that means almost all have been there a while - many for decades. Yet, this country is getting more and more mired in problems.
An interesting poll I saw once. It seems people were asked about their opinion of congress and about 15% were positive (not exact numbers, but near). When asked their opinion about ‘their own politicians’ - it was 90%.
That’s the problem. People vote based on party, name recognition, emotion, the fact they shook his/her hands at a rally, etc.
Again, I feel they have had their chance. I don’t think there are over a half dozen that are worthy of retention. They can certainly be given the opportunity to make their case and be a ‘challenger’ in an upcoming election.
The fact is, they are all going to do very well financially, they will have contacts, assets that can be utilitized. If they truly want to help this country, they can do just as much out here in the public sector.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #55;
Exactly! I’m with you on this 100% - - and, in spite of the devastating effect this is having on Americans in all the ways you mention - - neither party and none of the current candidates are ever going to do a thing about it - - nor will Congress.
The best we can hope for is that significant public activism may be able to motivate state legislatures to take constructive action. It’s ming-boggling to me to see how the Executive Branch has completely ignored enforcing the existing laws on the illegal immigrants AND on the businesses that illegally hire them!
For starters, the use of E-Verify should be REQUIRED of all employers - - and initial stringent enforcement actions of existing laws should go against employers. If there are no jobs - - fewer illegals will come and many already here will leave.
As it is now - - taxpayers are subsidizing the businesses hiring low-pay illegals because we’re stuck paying all the healthcare, social, welfare and criminality-related costs!
The businesses and people supporting illegal immigration and illegal immigrants are the ones who are “anti-American”!
Ladytexan, while some of this is correct, those places where John McCain travelled, held town hall meetings, tried to hold a press conference is what I mean by BIASED MEDIA! It it wan’t for Youtube, the messages wouldn’t get out at all!
All the problems you mentioned above he has spoken on, but groups like LaRaza have shown up and started throwing Rocks, Bottles and other objects clearly trying to start Racial unrest and make Race an issue! The last time I looked, ILLEGAL was not a race!
Polls are taken aiming at the people who will give them the numbers they want to see. I learned that a long time ago!
There is also something I learned about which explains a lot between not the parties, but along an ideology and it is this: There is a big difference between Liberals and Conservatives and the difference is this…...............
Conservatives believe that TRUTH is more important than Tolerance, which can be used against us to make us look like bigots, or that’s the charge.
Liberals believe that TOLERANCE is more important that Truth. This will result in nothing but Chaos since Tolerance means that you will end up tolerating everything, inlcuding intolerance!
Liberals believe that indeed Tolerance IS the Truth and this is why the LIE that “reality has a base in Liberalism” prevails.
I believe that is what holds more weight than shaking a hand or hearing someone talk, to be honest! If this were not true, we wouldn’t be hearing about how Obama, if he loses it will be because of Racism!
There were also those who used their own views of Racial hatred to push their own views and used John McCain’s stand on this issue as their base, making this a fine line to walk and not get stuck in.
I am running on a platform of enforcing our laws first and am in total support of E-Verify and if you want to help us get these important pieces of legislation passed, then please consider looking into http://www.numbersusa.org and making your voice heard! I, should i be blessed enough to get elected into office, am going to need your support from all areas to be able to stand up to the special interests! I realise that I’m going to be local in Arizona, but this organisation is a great one with honorable members!
We cannot afford to stay stuck in our own little private ;lives any longer. Running for office takes a lot out of one and the media scrutiny can be really intense, especially on Conservatives because the Media has a liberal bias! It is knowing that we are supported back at home that keeps most of us going and willing to take our place on the grill! And thank you!
Re: Ladytexan, Post #56;
There may be some “good” people in Washington - - but TOO MUCH POWER has been centralized in the federal government - - and Washington is no longer responsive to the interests of the citzenry! (Ex: 83% of Americans want the government to stop illegal immigration - - but no politician and neither party will respond!) It moves to the beat of Big Business, campaign finance, and running for re-election.
The entire equation has to be changed - - and the easiest and most effective way to change it is through a grass roots movement to re-strengthen the concepts of states’ rights and decentralized government. In essence, divide and conquer - - and let each state take the route most favored by its own local citizenry. (And, of course, we citizens would be free to relocate (if necessary) to whatever state we feel best maintains our most favored political, social and/or cultural milieu.)
Re: Allen In Atlanta, Post #51;
I agree with your suggestions - - but there’s no chance whatsoever to successfully generate Constitutional Amendments on these items.
HOWEVER - - with the exception of #1 - - nothing is preventing a political party or any candidate from adopting these positions as its/his/her campaign platform - - and, if elected, to operate accordingly.
The federal government and the political parties and their politicians are ALL so out-of-control today - - it’s difficult to know where to start or how to start to clean up the mess!
As far as I can see, it seems the only way to gain back control is to generate a strong states’ rights movement that, through presidential and congressional elections, eventually results in a scaling down of centralized power and a transfer of it to the states. (???)
TK,
Absolutely we have centralized too much power and I think that is one thing our founding fathers tried to prevent.
The politicians have used every calamity, natural or manmade, to gather more and more power. They have used wars, depressions, bank failures, transportation failures, factory failures, civil rights, education, drugs, gun control, poverty, and on and on and on. They jump in with their ‘solutions’ which are simply, ‘we’ll take over, you pay for it’.
I was in highschool in 1956, taking Civics. Our school superintendent, who rather than just a administrator was really the principal, and taught Texas History and Civics in high school.
We thought we had him when we would begin the class by asking some question about politics or current events and we would talk all period about that. We thought we were getting out of having class. The fact is, we were getting the best kind of education - a lesson in civics and how it applied to us and what was actually happening at the time.
We were segregated here in Texas and of course, that was a frequent topic. No, it was not racist - ever. The discussion usually centered on state’s rights.
‘Fess’ told us that segregation was way overdue and that the schools and children would have no problems. He said the problem would be when the federal government took over the schools, under the guise of education of the black children, our education system would be destroyed.
If everything except those powers explicitly given to the federal government, were returned to the states, we might have a chance of having an of, for, and by the people government. Politicians on a state level are fairly accessible and they are easier voted out if they aren’t doing as they should.
We have a huge incumbency rate in WAshington - it is almost impossible with the money, the media, the power, to get a message to them, or to get them to do what we want.
mrbenz7,
While I don’t think there is any such thing as liberal or conservative any more. Liberals are not liberal and conservatives are definately not conservative. The only difference is the part they play in the charade and their rhetoric.
Certainly, they want to play up some sort of label to keep their people in line, but think about the big things - really think about them, and show me where either so called side has made a real difference.
Think oursourcing, think trade, think illegal invasion, think welfare as a way of life, think encroaching government control, think this bailout, think the war. Yes, we had all manner of rhetoric, after the war began about their being ‘duped’, but the fact is, they voted for it. They will do the same for this bail out. The only hesitation is ‘what’s in it for me?’.
John McCain is not against illegal immigration. Again, respect the man for many things, but in that is wrong and no amount of protestation on the part of his fans is going to change it.
While I will bow to the fact that you are in AZ and he might have had meetings, etc., but why, then, has his national stance always been amnesty? He is pro-illegal - always has been. He may certainly be spooked by LaRaza, but that doesn’t change the facts. He has proposed an amnesty bill, is promising it once again. Whether he is getting paid off by corporations, by Mexican government or spooked by LaRaza, he has protected, championed and advocated for illegals - and is still doing it.
He has a national platform now, and many, many people in this country want something done about illegal immigration. If he were truly wanting to do something about it, now is the time. Instead, he’s promising them a key to country.
If he truly cared about this country, he would risk any scorn by LaRaza and special interest groups and demand that our laws be enforced. He would tell the people we have enough laws to do the job, we don’t need some huge land grab, to supposedly build a fence, we need law enforcement.
We need E-verify to be mandatory. We need every employer to use it and each company should verify their contractors us it. That’s a loophole corporations are using. We need it to be mandatory to check every worker, not just new hires.
As I understand it, it can’t be used to screen people for employment. The person has to actually be hired first. If they don’t receive notification in a timely manner, it can’t be used to delay the start of their work.
It also can’t be used to check out existing employees.
It does supposedly check name, SS# and DOB. That’s good - sex would be a good thing to add to that.
He isn’t putting forth any of those ideas, instead he is promising the illegals, and therefore the Mexican government, a key to the country.
A governor, at the time, of Mexico was making a speech in Texas some years ago. He addressed, ‘my people in the US’. He told them to ‘go vote and when you vote, vote with Mexico in mind.’
That’s what McCain wants to do, give this country to Mexico.
How can anyone say he is not pro-illegal?
No illegal is not a race - neither is Mexican so that is put in it’s place and truly other than for those who want to gain, it’s laughable.
I don’t believe in polls either, as my husband says, ‘if I pay for a poll, it best heck say what I want it to say.’. In this case, however, the polls are just an illustration of the facts that are supported by our encumbency rate. If we were really looking at the results of their actions, there is no way we would return them year after year after year.
Re: mrbenz7, Post #59;
I’ve been doing the http://www.numbersusa.org thing for quite some time - - and for a long time, I have believed we need a NON-partisan, grassroots, highly-energized effort to neutralize special interests and to regain “power for the people”.
However, partisanship and labelling is a divisive force that generates no good - - and keeps interested, capable and good people from truly uniting for the common good. As soon as one attaches “conservative” or “liberal” or “right” or “left” or “Republican” or “Democratic” or any other “labelling” or “namecalling” to any political effort - - the effort is doomed to failure because of “partisanship”.
40% to 60% of us are “middle-of-the-roaders” - - and most of us don’t really have much interest in the pet issues of the extremists - - whether leftist or rightist extremists!
Ladytexan, I cannot say that Liberals are not Liberal, I think they are even more so now than they used to be and the Charade is now socialism.
Don’t base true Conservatism on this Administration, it has been anything but Conservative and I’m not fooled because they opposed gay marriage! The last time I looked, a financial crisis would have us all in breadlines, gay people included!
We haven’t had any real true Conservatives since Ronald Reagan and Barry Goldwater and Barry Goldwater is someone I really miss, now more than ever!
I can say that McCain is not pro-illegal. He’s not as anti-illegal as I would like him to be, but only the liberally biased media can spin this as in support of illegal aliens. One thing that he said was a great point, that we cannot know exactly how many are here or what they’re background is until we can get them out of the shadows and a way to do that would have been to get them to pay back taxes and fines while undergoing a background check. We also must close the southern border first.
Those who will not comply with the above will be immediately deported! Those who are willing to cooperate are most likely not afraid of passing a background check and those who are will now be easy to identify.
Unfortunately I have to agree. This has been going on for so long and the problems really multiplied under Bill Clinton’s watch along with Liberals in congress who touted how willing they were themselves to violate the laws of this country and their state! One of the worst is California!
I don’t believe in political correctness of any sort. I’m from the midwest and we call lies lies and put them out in the light of day! Those who practise political correctness and keep pitting Liberals and Conservatives against each other are most often liberals and this boils back to what I said earlier about liberals being concerned with Tolerance and Conservatives being concerned with the truth.
To call it anything but what it is is another weapon of mass distraction. Those in the middle of the road I think are what I would call Libertarians.
I don’t pander to the extremists either and the media has a stake in making sure that we do not understand what is going on, but I don’t think fiscal responsibility, rebuilding our infrastructure, ending endless welfare entitlements, failing to hold those accountable for stealing from the taxpayers like Franklin Raines and Janine Gorelick (the heads of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac)did is totally unacceptable!
Only some one who’s been married will understand how it’s possible to be completely happy and totally miserable at the same time! While I believe that marriage is between one man and one woman, I still think we can find room somewhere for those others in our citizenry, but to be honest, it’s a low priority to me since we obviously have much larger problems.
The only thing I promised while running is to be accessible to the people. And right now i have to go back to work! -)
The rumors are that Joe Biden will drop out of the race in early October, claiming health concerns. Guess who will replace Biden? Supposedly, a very famous female.
Don’t know if it’s true or not, but snopes.com isn’t sure, either…and they’re the “go to” site for verifying or disproving rumors. (This can be easily checked if you can use Google.)
IF true, this is not only the ultimate cynical flip-flop, but an act of sheer desperation.
Will not reply to “opinions” about what I have stated. You can google it up or STFU.
Re: ladytexan, Post #62;
I, too, was in high school in the late 50s, and while I was in a different part of the country where segregation/integration was not as much of an issue in the schools as it was elsewhere in the country, “Civics” was an “all day”, “in all classes” kind of thing! I can still remember almost having to “memorize” - - “All those powers not explicitly granted to the federal government are reserved for the states.”
I do agree, as you stated, that Washington has used various events to gather more and more power to itself - - and has used social welfare programs, more and more, to retain that power. And - - it has nothing to do with party or political persuasion. They’ve ALL done it (and are doing it), irrespective of whether they’ve called themselves GOPs or DEMs or cons or libs. Personally, I think the labels have become meaningless: the so-called conservatives are associated only with guns, anti-abortion, and religion - - and the so-called liberals are associated only with high taxes, government
spending and socialism. A review of the last few years and current events certainly doesn’t follow along with the hackneyed definitions of conservative and liberal. But, as you say, the politicians continue to play out the charade.
We are a business-to-business services company - - and we are familiar with E-Verify. The E-Verify check for “legal to work in the U.S.” status is supposed to be completed after an “offer of employment” is made - - and it’s supposed to be used for EVERY new hire - - rather than on a “pick and choose” basis.
From our experience, the program works well, is more accurate than, say, the local registrars of voters databases and, while an illegal using the stolen ID of a citizen might get by - - smart interviewing, a detailed application, and other routine background checks will usually discover the fraud. Anyway - - the program works as well as any other database-dependent program - - and there is a very simple, straightforward, and easy to follow appeal program that can correct an error within a couple of days. It SHOULD BE REQUIRED of EVERY employer. The fact that it’s not is PURELY POLITICAL.
The problem of illegal immigrants from Mexico streaming into this country - - with all the problems and costs they bring - - is the single biggest threat to the future well-being of this country as all of us “Seniors” have come to know it. And, the problem will continue until we begin to have the same kind of violent protests against it as we had against the Viet Nam war in the late 60s.
Over the last 40 or so years, political polls have proven to be very accurate. Only in this current campaign have the polls now become “partisan” also! Today, even the pollsters are agenda-driven GOPs or DEMs.
Note, also, another favored political shibboleth that has now finally failed miserably (as I though it would for the last 25 years) - - the almighty economic policy of “a deregulated, open trade, free market”.
We clearly need rules, boundaries and limitations in all things - - “accountability” - - with enforcement.
TK,
The results of labelling of party line is not lost on politicians. They know if they label it, they can count on about half the voters being for it, and the other half being against it.
If they really are trying to get anything passed, they only have to appeal to a small percentage point to swing it.
The middle of the roaders, the common senser ( I call them) are for the most part, just staying home.
But you know, really a lot of the party liners are not extremist, not at all. They are people who believe much as we do, they just don’t feel they have anything but the party, and they go along.
mrbenz7,
No it is not the media that paints John McCain as pro illegal. It is his own actions, his own policies, and his own words.
No, we don’t need to offer them this country to ‘get them to come out of the shadows’.
We saw thousands of them marching in the streets, that doesn’t look like they are ‘in the shadows’.
Let me speak to the ideas you say he has espoused.
<<<<<<One thing that he said was a great point, that we cannot know exactly how many are here or what they’re background is until we can get them out of the shadows and a way to do that would have been to get them to pay back taxes and fines while undergoing a background check. We also must close the southern border first.>>>>>>
His points sounds so good - but they truly make no sense - have no validity. They are empty words that just sound good. In application and actuality, they are empty.
It is a true point, we don’t know how many are here. The fact is, that is not a big point. It matters as far as the damage, but as far as enforcing our laws, it doesn’t matter that much.
He is trying to convince people it is impossible to enforce our laws.
One thing Mr. McCain knows, or should, they didn’t come here to be citizens. They came to make money. Some came for pretty scary reasons. They are not interested in paying taxes, paying fines, or becoming good US citizens as we think of good citizens. Not for the most part.
The only ones who will come forward will be those for whom it is more lucrative for them to do it and making them pay taxes will not fit that description.
There are many who are here with the expressed purpose of ceding land back to Mexico. Those are probably the ones who will come forward, someone will pay any back taxes, and they will be able to vote in our elections. A joke, an insult to our citizens.
Now how are we going to decide how much taxes they should pay? Are they going to go to H & R Block with all their pay stubs and report every dime they have made. Well, of coure, they aren’t.
Now assuming some do come with some kind of documentation to ‘pay’ their taxes. There is the little thing called earned income tax credit. If they file, they will then be as eligible as anyone else for that money. They can admit owing $5K in taxes, and get back $10K. Just another joke on the taxpayer.
Think of those nearing or at retirement age that will now be eligible for retirement and that is what will happen. So some may not get the tax credit, and they pay just enough to qualify for SS. Now they are going to be put on our already overburdened SS sytem.
Now we have to decide how we are going to do a background check. Has anyone really thought that out or are they just stopping at how ‘reasonable’ it sounds? These people have worked under a dozen or more different names, a dozen or more SS#, and been booked in police stations under a dozen or more different names.
That’s is so beyond a possibility, it would be funny, if it weren’t so serious.
Are we going back to their native country to see if they are criminals?
What are we going to do with those who don’t come forward. Remember, supposedly we can’t find those who are well-meaning people - we have to bribe them to find them. Does anyone think the child molesters, rapist, theives, drug dealers and gangbangers are going to come forward and admit their evil doings?
So how are we going to find them? If we can’t find those who are working, have kids in school, on the welfare roles, why would anyone swallow the marlarky that we can find the criminals?
Right, those who don’t comply will more than likely be criminals and they should be deported. Now again, if we can’t find and deport those in plain sight, how are we going to find the criminals.
Has he said ‘close’ the border - or build a fence. Those are two different things. The fence is a joke. It is a huge, expensive land grab that will do very little to stop illegals.
You know it is a start and stop fence - built in short lengths, but they are going to build ‘doors’ or ‘gates’ in those fences to allow the people whose land they have fenced off from the US, access to their own country. Now, just me, but I’m thinking those illegals are not going to find it too hard to either bypass a keypad or cut a lock and get through the doors they have conveniently placed there for them.
The government is taking up to 2 miles from the river in places. Why? it isn’t necessary. They are fencing people’s homes off from their own country.
Again, you respect McCain and I’m thinking you want to do what is right for this country. The first thing to doing right for this country is to admit what is wrong and admit to the lies and empty words that politicians are feeding us.
Believe me, ‘out of the shadows’ is buzzwords for ‘I support illegal aliens’. I’ve been getting that trash back from politicians for decades.
Anything less than simply enforcing our laws is amnesty. Our laws will take care of 75% of our problems. Then we can concentrate on the criminals. No need to spend tons of money on useless, impossible, invalid background checks.
Make E-verify mandatory, and used to check all employers, present and future.
Fine employers - big time
Cut of all welfare except emergency food and medical care
Impound vehicle being driven by unlicensed or uninsured drivers
Enforce zoing laws
Shut down businesse that are operating without licenses, health certificates, and not in compliance with zoning laws.
Any sanctuary city should be denied federal monies
Collect payroll taxes -
Those are laws all the rest of us must obey. It isn’t singling out illegals.
When this country is no longer such easy pickings, they will go home on their own.
Senator McCain is and has been pro illegal, and no amount of pretty words will make it anything else.
I do read some on NumbersUSA, also check out ALIPAC.
TK,
Am I right that E Verify is not to be used on existing employees? Only new hires and it can only be used after the person is actually hired? It can’t be used to ‘screen’ them before the offer of employment.
If everyone was required to use E Verify, it would work to a great degree.
So large corporation that hires many illegals can announce to the world they now use E-verify and have let hundreds of illegals go. Good PR. What they actually do is hire independent contractors to do the work, and they hire the self-same illegals. The company is correct in that they use E Verify - but it is a truth that hides a very big lie.
I agree we do need some regulations - that’s just the way it is.
Also, we do not need the unholy alliance of business and government. We don’t need taxpayer dollars being doled out to business and we don’t need government employees who are doing the bidding of business.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #69;
E-Verify is supposed to be used on new hires - - and on EVERY one of them. And, of course, subcontractors, e.g., temporary work agencies and professional employer organizations, CAN supply workers to any company, including, for example, big packing houses, etc. - - BUT - - these so-called “subcontractors” are also “employers” - - and are/would be subject to the REQUIRED use of E-Verify. Fairly recently, Wal-Mart had a problem with its contracted-out “cleaning crews” - - with hundreds being illegals. But, of course, they said it was the subcontractor’s failure, not theirs. In reality, it doesn’t matter which company is penalized for the hiring - - as long as the penalty is assessed and the illegals deported - - and, if necessary, personally penalize the owners of the hiring company, too!
The existing penalty, as I recall, for hiring a person not authorized to work in the U.S. is $10,000 per illegal hire - - and if it becomes a pattern, I believe the fine is $100,000 and a court order to cease business operations for a certain period of time. We were once associated with a smallish company with about 60 employees that was fined $100,000 and suspended from continuing business for 60 days - - for having 18 illegals working. BUT - - that was 10-12 years ago. Now, most employers in our area who hire these kinds of workers have a “don’t ask-don’t tell” policy - - and the police and sheriff’s departments do nothing unless one of them is arrested. In fact, we once had a LARGE illegal immigrant detention center in our general area - - where the illegals who were discovered were detained until deportation - - but it was CLOSED down about ten years ago. Now, for all intents and purposes, to the authorities, there’s no such thing as an “illegal” immigrant.
It’s a sad statement on American government and business. (And, I agree, that is THE “unholy alliance”)
voxoreason: I know you say you won’t respond, but I would like to make a comment anyway?
Obviously Obama is getting desperate, and he could very well change VP’s before the election, but there are a few problems with that:
First, Biden was endorsed at their convention, so to name a new VP nominee, their party rules would require that the convention delegates endorse the new nominee, though knowing how the Democrats love to break all the rules, they would just ignor their rules.
Second, they have to do it soon as many states are ready to print their ballots, and some may have already sent them to the printers. The legal challenges should Biden’s name remain on the ballot when their is a different VP nominee could make hanging chads in Florida seem like a picnic.
Third, The Clinton’s were the big wigs of their party, and did not lose that designation when Gore or Kerry ran, but lost that when Obama took out Hillary???? in the primaries. There is a lot of bad blood, and you do not cross the Clinton’s and live??
Hillary may?? have agreed to be the VP before their convention, but when she was so cruelly snubbed, and after the nasty primaries, in spite of all the making nice, Obama is little better than a mortal enemy of the Clinton’s now. This was an interior power struggle within the Democrat Party, the primaries, and the Clinton’s lost to the even farther left.
She may have agreed to be VP once and would have had to really bite her pride to lower herself to be a VP to that man, but not now. Being second best would have been hard for her, but now when Obama is desperate, she will not be third best after Joe Biden.
Besides, she still has plans for 2012, and if Obama does get elected, unless he really stumbles, he will re-run in 2012, and that ruins her plans. With McCain winning, he will probably not run again in 2012, so she might be running against Sarah Palin?
And finally, with the economy going south right now, the winner of this election, unless they clean up the Washington government problem, may not have a chance in hell of getting re-elected in 2012 - and especially if we go so far down that a recession and financial emergency becomes a depression. The next President will have to take on big government and that is a tall order or sell out even more and that may actually cause the economy to go depression. A sell out President will not get re-elected in 2012, but someone that says they are against the sell outer will be easily elected. The Clintons will like those odds.
So Obama may replace Biden, but it will not be with Hillary, at least that is my thoughts.
TK,
Thanks, yes I understood from what I’ve read that it is used on NEW hires and is supposed to be used on all of them.
I understand that contractors should do the same. But if a company uses E-verify, but contractors don’t, I’m thinking they are going to get a pass.
Now why Wal Mart got tagged, I don’t know. Why does the government go after one company and not another? Didn’t pony up when the fund raisers came calling?
I’m wondering why E-verify cannot be used on existing employees. So if an illegal has been there for 2 weeks or longer, he’s in forever if he doesn’t quit and seek employment elsewhere, as it stands.
I think E-verify, as implemented, is a joke and intended to be. I think our border fence, as it is being done, is not a joke, it’s too sad for those citizens whose lives have been ruined, but it is worthless.
These are things the government talks about and puts in place (sort of), that is supposed to look like they are doing something, but they are not.
Quietman,
I’m not sure that Obama’s aim is to be reelected. It may be that we will be so destroyed, we won’t have an election or it may be he will have such control, we won’t have an election.
This man’s candidacy is not just dirty politics as we know it - it’s something far worse.
I don’t know that Hillary would take the VP spot due to her ego wanting to be the president, but I don’t think she would let a little thing like being tromped on in the primaries stop her if she wanted the spot. That goes for all politicians, I’m thinking.
Ladytexan, I’m not saying our laws cannot be enforced, but short of making everyone a law enforcement officer, what do you have in mind? I’m open to suggestions and with the current economy the way it is I like anyone else would have a hard time passing a financial burden like this right now!
I promised to be accessible, so if you have a better idea of how we are going to round up 20 to 30 million illegal aliens who are not going to stay put while we find them let me know what it is because it’s greatr to say we should be enforcing our laws and we should have a long time ago.
But we are long past there and the only way we can lock down our communities now, which means everyone including U.S. Citizens would be to declare Marshall law! Is that what you want?
It’s to easy to say my words are just that words, I’m open to suggestions. I would like all of our communities to pick up the phone when they find a drop house in their area. How far are we supposed to go to enforce these laws now? Mistakes were made a long time ago letting so many people stay uninvited, but what else could we do now? Should we go house to house making searches?
I’m all for putting our military on our border! But what do we do with the children who were born here to illegal parents? Do we revoke their citizenship rights? We have an illegal family in this state that kept moving to avoid detection. Their son who was born here served in the military and died in Iraq defending this country. What do we do with his sister who is a citizen and living here?
I’d like to know because if I win in this election, it will be my first time in office.
I say that our military should be on our border supporting our border patrol and that if they are fired upon that they have the right to use deadly force to protect themselves! It would be a lot easier if we only had a few hundred or thousand of illegal living here, but neglect and liberalism has long since put that to bed, so tell me what would you do?
The one thing I did and still do support is Attrition Through Enforcement, but how do we get there? the idea of paying a fine, back taxes and for the services you used is because we have had a few people here for more than 15 years whose children were born here. Do we seperate the parents or send all of them including the children back to where they came from to a country they don’t know and a language they cannot speak? There are many of these.
I have had some tell me that they would put up the National guard at every city block while we search every house and apartment, but I would have a hard time explaining how this would be different than what Germany did to the jews 75 years ago!
What I can say is that if the jobs, services, welfare, drivers licenses and other means of support could only be obtained by proving citizenship, that I could make a case for that and I believe it would work, since this is basically what Attrition Through Enforcement is.
Now when it comes to anyone smuggling drugs across the border for sale in this country, I think it should mean the automoatic death penalty for such actions!
I would and do support tougher enforcement measures for Drug Dealing, human smuggling, extortion and any kind of gang activity, in fact I believe that such activity means an automatic death penalty if someone is killed that would not be open for discussion or appeal.
I support the death penalty in a lot of cases because of the sheer cost to the taxpayers is getting outrageous, life in prison with no chance of parole is costing $50,000 a year per person and those resources could be put to a lot of better uses.
If you would like to see someone use something besides those “buzzwords”, why not run for office yourself?
mrbenz7,
Again, it isn’t a complex issue - really it isn’t.
It isn’t a political issue - it’s a legal issue.
You know we have laws on the books that worked for many years. They haven’t worked lately, because they haven’t been used.
Any employer caught working illegals, gets fined, to the limit of the law - for each and every one. If the law allows for confiscation of property - do it.
Deny access to social services. Any illegal caught receiving social services, should be charged with felony theft, lying to a federal official, etc. etc. Yes, our laws do allow for US born children to receive benefits, but we do not have to provide for the family as well.
Provide emergency food and medical care for illegals. That for a short time.
No housing subsidies, revoke the HUD loans. I’m wondering if they are going to be upfront about how many of those ‘bad’ loans might have been given to illegals.
Anyone caught without a valid DL - impound the vehicle.
Anyone caught without insurance in states that require it - impound the vehicle.
Anyone caught with fraudulent ID, should be charged with a felony - for each count - or given the opportunity to return home.
The illegals have started many businesses here. How can anyone open open a business and run it without being here legally? Close them down.
We don’t need to make everyone a LE officer. We just need the ones who are - to do their jobs.
When did we decide that we could pick and choose what laws would be enforced?
For years, and still to a very large degree, LE officers simply turn a blind eye when they see someone they think might be illegal.
We were driving down the interstate one day and I noticed 3 vans. One was being pulled by another, both being driven were being driven by Hispanic males.
The windows appeared to be stuffed full of household goods. They weren’t stacked in there, it was as if someone had just stuffed them in, clothes, dishes, fans, etc., to fill the windows and you could not see inside.
There were no license plates, at all. There were no inspection stickers, at all.
After we had passed them and moved in front a highway patrol came up, passed them by, without even appearing to look at them.
About a mile down the highway, the patrolman had pulled over a fairly new car being driven by an older couple and was writing them a traffic ticket.
Who is separating those families - no one is. No one has suggested they be separated. Do you think these parents are going to leave their children here - just because they were born here?
Would you?
These people left their own roots and culture to come here. They brought existing children when they came. They definitely left their roots, their culture, their heritage, their true homeland to come here. Roots didn’t mean much where the chance to make more money was involved.
Roots - is a strawman argument. The politicians are being very disingenuous in that - not the only instance, but certainly that one.
When these kids reach 21, they can choose their citizenship - as some US children have done who were born on foreign soil. I had a nephew born in England, that’s what he had to do. Not once did anyone suggest that he was in danger of being ‘separated’ from his family.
We didn’t create the problem, the parents did. Will the children suffer, perhaps - perhaps not. Children do suffer, or have a change in lifestyle all the time because of actions of their parents.
Bottom line, my children, my grandchildren should not have to pay for the upkeep of millions of illegals. My grandchildren’s right to a free a prosperous nation should not be destroyed because someone chose to break our laws in order to make money, and had children while they were doing it.
How many illegals died in Iraq? So we are going to make decisions to keep millions here because of one instance? Now you know and I know you do, that no one is talking about those instances.
In this country, we grant citizenship or special visas for all manner of things.
See that’s what I am talking about. In order to try to deflect from the fact that this is a wholesale invasion, a travesty, destruction to this country, totally unfair to the citizens - someone brings up the one in 50 million instance that staying could be justified. That’s politics, not truth, not a true search for answers.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #72;
Any “contractors” or “subcontractors” would be just another business with employees - - not unlike the business for whom the contractor or subcontractor is working. Consequently, if E-Verify was required of ALL “employers” - - and assuming there was effective enforcement - - the constractors and subcontractors would be as legally-liable to use the program as would be ALL employers. Therefore, theoretically at least, NO business could “get away with hiring illegals”.
The creation and history of E-Verify has always been beset by critics calling it “racist”, “anti-immigrant”, “anti-Hispanic”, “anti-Mexican” and what have you - - basically, those opposed to it insist it’s “discriminatory” and that it is inimical to all the “equal opportunity” and “anti-disciminatory” employment laws - - which is why an employer has to use it (to be ‘fair’) on ALL new hires. And traditional “ex post facto” concepts in our body of law keep it from being used on existing employees.
E-Verify is only a “joke” because, as is the case with a lot of other elements in effective “background screening” (and illegal immigration) - - it’s not REQUIRED and ENFORCED. (Most Chambers of Commerce and other types of business and professional associations are opposed to it. Basically - - a wide range of American small, medium and large businesses simply insist on being able to hire the illegals because they can pay them the least and use and abuse them the most!)
Also note: In terms of doing a “criminal background check” in Mexico on a Mexican national applying for a greencard/job/citizenship here - - it’s IMPOSSIBLE! Most of the illegals coming here are from rural, undeveloped areas of Mexico which, after all, is a third-world country to begin with - - and there’s just been no effective record-keeping of any kind - - and, even if they had records, there’s no willingness on Mexican officials parts to cooperate.
And, personally, I have no use for the “anchor baby” concept to begin with, either, so it’s immaterial to me if “illegal” parents have to take their “legal” kids back with them to Mexico if the parents are deported. And, I believe, the ONLY effective way to deal with the problem is to begin ENFORCING the existing employment laws against hiring illegals on those employers who are hiring them - - and ending the “sanctuary city” nonsense - - along with free healthcare and the other “perks” the illegals have been getting. The government needs to make it clear that it is embarking on a program to enforce existing laws on any business hiring illegals and deport anyone found to be here illegally. An unbroken border fence and a National Guard presence along the border is a necessity.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #77;
I’m very much in agreement with your statement - - “Roots - - is a strawman argument!”
The problem here is that somewhere along the line, “illegal” immigration became a “civil law” violation instead of a “criminal law” violation - - and that’s how law enforcement officials and the executive branch of governments - - local, state, federal - - have rationalized and justified their dereliction of duty in “enforcing the law”.
It will take local and state activism (SUPPORTED by the courts) to begin to effectively deal with the issue.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #76;
I agree it’s a legal issue - - but the governmnet has made it a “civil” legal issue rather than a “criminal” legal issue - - and, consequently, there is no “enforcement”.
I further think all your suggested “policies” for dealing with the issue are right on the money and would definitely be effective.
I truly resent that fact that I, an American citizen, have had to follow a myraid of laws, civil and criminal, for decades and decades - - along with all kinds of social and cultural conventions, mores and ideals relative to a host of unwritten rules, boundaries and limitations - - and these damned illegals can come here and make a complete joke of it all! They bear NO RESEMBLANCE WHATSOEVER to the historical European immigrants who helped to settle and develop this country. Pox on the damned politicians who are allowing the Mexifornication of America!
Re: mrbenz7, Post #73;
NAIL THE EMPLOYERS - - stridently and consistently - - and the vast majority of the problem will go away! (And TERMINATE the welfare handouts!)
The taxpayer, by covering all the social and welfare costs associated with this problem, is subsidizing the damned businesses (especially the Big Businesses) who are hiring illegals contrary to existing law. Screw the employers! They’re the CAUSE of the problem!
RE: Ladytexan, Post #68;
I agree with most of what you say here - - BUT - - I do believe BOTH major political parties are controlled by a MINORITY of extremists within each party’s hierarchy.
There’s no doubt that extremist Evangelicals consider themselves to be “the base” of the GOP and that they demand to be pandered to and catered to (e.g., the Sarah Palin selection).
And, there’s similarly no doubt that the minority of the extremist Soros-DailyKos-ACLU wing of the Democratic Party, first, engineered the demise of Hillary Clinton’s candidacy (she was TOO “middle-of-the-road” for them) and, second, arranged the candidacy of Obama, who they perceive as “more controllable” by them and “further left” than the Clintons.
I believe the Evangelical extremists are a larger group within the GOPs than are the Lefty Loons within the DEMs - - but BOTH represent a minority extremist element that currently controls their respective party’s perspective and direction.
Howard Dean is a good example of the Lefty Loon element of the DEMs - - and Sarah Palin is a good example of the Rockhead Righty element of the GOPs. Both are extremists. Neither represents the vast moderate majority of typical Americans.
TK, Arizona currently has the toughest employer sanctions law in the country! We pushed hard for initiative 200 and won. There is another group now called Wake up Arizona which is funded by the greedy employers who want to gut the Prop 200 initiative I helped put into law. I won’t go into details on it here because it is a simple matter of putting it into your browser and finding out what it does. Employers who knowingly hire ILLEGAL ALIENS in the State of Arizona are fined a hefty penalty the first time, a second and you lose your business license in Arizona and a third time and you lose the right to do business in Arizona permanently!
I was and still am totally for this measure! Our opponents are pushing Prop 202 which would essentially gut Prop 200 and take all the enforcement measures out of it.
Welfare in Arizona is denied to those who cannot prove they are in the country Illegally! Along with AHCCS (Arizona Healthcare Cost Containment System) Benefits are deied as well. There have been some who have violated the law and those who have been caught are serving time with Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio, who has been called America’s Toughest Sheriff!
However, and this is where I’ve seen to much to think we could do otherwise and I would need total support in this…..The ILLEGAL ALIEN supporters have already demonstrated that they will do any kind of disruptive behavior to forstall any action on this issue and play the race card. Past demonstrations have turned violent and I would not be opposed to heavily armed law enforcement using extreme measures to make sure this does not get out of control and to prosecute those who support ILLEGAL ALIENS to the fullest extent of the law for civil disobedience.
When I said before “are you in support of Marshall law?” was not a slam, I meant it and wanted to know how many would not be opposed to this because it would take any issue of racial profiling out of the picture and we would have to be willing to have security checkpoints in our communities as well.
This would be an extreme measure, but it could be accomplished if we are all on the same page. It will not work everywhere however and I would not expect states like California to comply! Neither would New Mexico, New York, Washington, Illinois. Rhode Island and Massachussetts.
The other blue states could go either way and you can bet the ACLU (whom I wish I could De-fund with a stroke of the pen!)Wuill do whatever they can including provoke violent activities to ensure they do as much harm to the process as possible!
I’m not opposed to these measures, but I would need to know that the people who could elect me to serve them want this too or I am going to have some explaining to do.
I have to say that I do not believe that Sarah Palin is on the extrememright like the media would want you to believe. She is against abortions and that has put her in the extreme right by the leftist media outlets with the exception of Fox, which did do a great interview with her!
Sarah Palin has so much appeal because she relates to average Americans well and is not one of those wealthy elitists who was gifted into the position she now has! She worked hard to get where she is and she earned the respect of many and it has been with some investigation I have found out that those who opposed her are the ones who liked her the least since these people in power in Alaska got caught with their hand in the cookie jar and blatantely flaunted it and tried to censure her for blowing the whistle!
What the media didn’t teel you and I’m sure that they won’t is that she was threatened with “in a state as big as Alaska, you could dissapear and no one would find you” type of tactics and she didn’t fold! That is pretty extreme I think anyone would agree and her toughness is the biggest reason she connects so well to even a lot of Hillary Clinton Suopporters.
TK,
We might be somewhat in agreement on the extremist, but I’m thinking there are more middle of the roaders in both parties, than there are extremists. They just haven’t taken that one last step to admitting their ‘party’ is a farce. If they did that, where would they go.
Where should I cast my vote? I think illegal immigration is the single biggest and most devastating problem we have in this country and both candidates are pro illegal?
McCain is trying to sound tough and make them pay a fine and have a background check. He knows that is impossible and the attempt will cost us millions or billions. Obama is cutting right to the chase - both are working for the same thing - to give them this country.
As for the Christians voting Republican, they too, have no where to go. Now I’m talking average Christian. The TV evangelists, the mega churches whose pastors vocally, and monetarily supported this President, did it for reasons other than ideology, maybe??
These people believed the President would get faithbaed initiative through, and they thought he would get school vouchers through. Both of these would mean a ton of money coming back to them. Think about it. I’m thinking church ‘leaders’ support was based on finance more than faith.
mrbenz7,
Thank you for working on Prop 200. I think that was being proposed when we were out there. I remember, and was ashamed, when a fireman made an ad that said, “I don’t want to have to ask a person if they are a citizen before I try to save their life.” (or words to that effect)
That was the kind of asinine things that get said and I hope everyone saw it as clearly as I did.
Maybe I shouldn’t thank you so much, however. I just read an article that told how much violent crime has increaed in Texas and it was suggested it could be because so many illegals are leaving AZ and OK, and ending up in Texas. Texas is not a designated santuary state - it is just one in practice, and in fact.
Some brave cities have taken steps, but it hasn’t been easy.
I don’t know why exactly we would need Marshall Law. If you have people rioting and attacking people and property, that is simply police matter.
The fact is, I’ve been concerned for a very long time that our government would use the illegal problem to do something more permanent than Marshall Law.
Simply enforce the employer laws, cut off the welfare, impound the vehicles. Those are laws to be enforced by all levels of the law.
I can see there would be demonstrations, but I’m thinking those could be handled.
TK,
Yes, I know they call everything racist. Remember when they use racists, it means they have reached the bottom of the barrel as far arguments go. I know I’ve won when they call me a racist. Except, I always point out that I share the same race, human, and the same subset, caucasian, as Mexicans, and illegal is not a race.
I’m not sure why E-verify couldn’t be used to check existing employees. Businesses do drug screening on existing employees, and some require health screenings, some even have to take polygraph tests randomly.
You are right, though if it were mandatory, then the contractors and subcontractors would not matter.
I’m just thinking of this one company that skirted the issue by subcontracting.
I think Marshall law would need to be in effect because of the sheer numbers of people involved. I don’t believe that there are only 12 to 20 million people here illegally, I’m afraid the number is closer to 30 million myself. That is 10% of our population and I’m not sure our law enforcement is equipped to handle it right now.
It is also going to be necessary in places like California where they are either forced to comply whether they like it or not or lose federal funding if they don’t.
Cities like San Francisco have no right to be declaring themselves a sanctuary city and then want money from the rest of us since San Francisco itself is drowning in $330 million in debt. Also when you have American citizens being killed by ILLEGAL ALIEN gunman in a supposed gun free city, well if that doesn’t get your brain in gear, what will?
I believe the figure is closer to 30-50 million.
But truly all of these people are not going to riot.
I’m thinking all we need is a President who will simply tell them every one of our laws are going to be enforced.
If you, as an employer, are working illegals, and it can be proven, you are in for a bad time, up to and including confiscation of the business. The penalities will be the maximum allowed by the law and some negative publicity will attached.
If you are an illegal, you need to return home. Give them a time limit (months). Tell them if they will return on their own, they will be allowed to liquidate any assets they have and keep the money. If they do not return within the time limit, all assets will be seized.
If they have no way to return, we will furnish that for them.
All social beneifts will be stopped.
If they return voluntarily, then no charges of any kind will be made. If they don’t, the maximum for each and every violation - labor laws, tax laws, social services, etc.
Yes, we will have some hard core criminals that won’t want to go, but make the criminal element understand they will be dealt with harshly. We will consider them foreign invaders and will be treated as such.
It won’t be smooth, it won’t be quick, it won’t be easy - but it isn’t impossible, and it certainly is not complex.
Above all, it is the right thing to do.
I’m not concerned about violent confrontations with illegal aliens frankly. It is the U.S. Citizens who will do whatever it takes to make this an issue of race and will do what they can to inspire a race war and the first group that comes to mind is LaRaza!
mrbenz7,
Now you are talking about citizens of Mexican ancestry causing a race war?
Yes, LaRaza will do everything it can, but if the law is simply being enforced, let them.
You may be right that hispanic citizens will be involved. Actually, though, there are many who are not happy about the illegal situation either. Now what side they would choose, who knows.
Actually, I’m convinced we citizens could fix the problem ourselves - peacefully. We would have to get together and do it. It would take a concerted effort, with everyone working together.
Our government is not going to do anything but give them amnesty. If the last 30 years has taught us anything, it’s that.
Whatever is done to correct this will have to be done by citizens. Confrontations will not do us any good.
Although I do believe that some people of Mexican Heritage would take part, there is also a lot of people who are extremely Liberal who wou;ld see violence and disobedience as a badge of honor and totally justified. I’ve seen at demonstrations violent confrontations and the last ones were at the Republican convention! Even though those had little to do with illegal immigration, the damage done to the city by a few was astounding.
There are a lot of hispanics who feel totally used by their own community and for good reason. I would hop and rather you be right instead of me, but as one supporter put it, Elias Bermudez, “We know it’s not a racial issue, but we use it and turn it into one because it get’s people fired up and it works!”
What exactly do you mean by “Marshall” law? That marshalls will enforce the law?
The term is “martial” law, derived from Mars, the God of War, and relating to military matters. Hence, court martials in the military, not court “marshalls.” Same idea.
Thank you.
mrbenz7,
No doubt there will be some of what you are saying.
Keep in mind, though, I believe we can do it without any of that.
I’m also convinced that many well use it for their own agenda. That happens.
There is a good chance our very own government, on one hand, will be fanning the flames. It won’t be the first time. They already give our tax dollars to LaRaza. We can be sure Mexico will be. We can also be sure they will be financed by business interests.
So this country who has allowed this administration and congress to lead us into a war on the other side of the world against a country with only tenuous, at best, danger to us, is going to simply surrender for fear of riots?
Are we going to be blackmailed into turning over our country to a foreign government - make no mistake that is exactly what the end result will be - because we fear some criminals may get violent?
This country, wrongly I think, supported this administration in the invasion of Iraq, yet thinks we can’t depend on it to protect us from foreign invaders and criminals here on our own soil. That’s a bit telling as far as their real faith in the government, isn’t it?
You know we are supposed to be “fighting ‘them’ over there so we don’t have to fight ‘them’ here”.
Guess what? ‘they’ are here - ‘they’ were always here - not in Iraq.
So what are we going to do about it? Fold, surrender the country?
Yes, I do think the government will bring out military of some kind. In fact, there have been some rumors to that effect going around the internet. NO one has given a reason for this, just that it might be happening.
Again, we the people, without government involvement, without government help, can peacefully get together and make a huge difference. We just have to resolve to do it.
We have to turn loose of the idea that government will do anything. We have to turn loose of the idea that it’s too big, too complex.
That is just brainwashing rhetoric.
If getting illegals home is too big, too complex, or might produce riots, and the only answer is complete surrender - then we had better stop thinking of ourselves as any kind of force in the world, and admit we are totally incapable of defending our country. I’m not buying it.
voxoreason,
You are right, wrong word.
The fact is, though, I’m thinking we all understood what we were talking about.
Again, though you are absolutely right - a bit of eye/brain disconnect, on my part.
Ladytexan
No major problem, especially on a discussion board such as this.
Professional writers and speakers routinely make elementary school grammatical and spelling errors. Now THIS really annoys me.
As far as illegal immigrants, I am with McCain on first enforcing our borders, which is basically: Stop the bleeding!
But I don’t expect either party to risk the potentially decisive hispanic vote in the years to come (predictions are that they will be the majority by 2050; on the other hand, will there BE a 2050?), while ignoring issues that are going to be hitting the fan soon, eg, the insolvency of Social Security and Medicare.
If the liberals can turn America into a socialist nation in time, they can say, “Let them eat cake!”
But I suspect that they’ll simply ignore the problem as America doesn’t have major media news, but propaganda. Katie Couric blasted Sarah Palin for mentioning the term “Great Depression,” but it was *Couric* herself who *first* used the term in a question. Chutzpa! (NBC’s Tom Brokaw used the same term in a report the same night part 1 of the interview with Palin aired. Horrors!)
The Media Research Center documents this kind of thing and gives you the full details, but provides a one-paragraph “teaser” upfront so you can decide just what you want to read more about or not. Their daily email is free and invaluable. How often do you see something like that?
;>)
voxoreason,
I wasn’t offended.
As for closing the border first - again those are buzz words.
I don’t mean to sound like a know it all, but I’ve been watching, fighting, talking and trying to do something about this for 30 years.
Also, I’m from Texas, we know manure when we see it or hear it. That’s exactly what a ‘close the border - first’ - is.
Yes, we do need to close the border. The problem is, as long as the magnets, jobs, no taxes, no law enforcement, freebies are here for the taking, they will come.
When they keep telling us we need a fence, we need to close the border - they know that isn’t the most important thing. They know it will be well-nigh impossible to do - without calling up a lot of troops (which would be fine with me). They also know that whatever personnel they put on the border, they will not be allowed to do the job.
One thing you have to realize, these people have done nothing constructive for 30 years, so I’m suspect of anything they suggest.
Anything less the absolute honesty of telling the illegals they are here breaking our laws, hurting the people of this country. Anything less than telling them to go home, setting a time - is amnesty.
Anything less than the absolute honesty of telling the American people of the scope of the problem, the dangers, the deaths, the cost, the destruction caused by this - is amnesty.
Anything less than telling employers, we are coming after you, get your act together, is amnesty.
The Hispanic vote is now important and will be more so in years to come. They will be voting as they were told, ‘vote and when you vote, vote with Mexico in mind’.
That is one very imperative reason to enforce our laws, send the illegals home and never, ever, ever - allow them to stay and grow in numbers, and get citizenship.
But why do you and others insist on calling this a Democrat problem?
We have had a Republican President for 8 years. One of his first stated goals was amnesty for the illegals.
He said those opposing it were bigots.
He said the Minutemen, etc., were vigilantes.
He said these were just ‘hardworking people looking for a better life’ - that they were ‘doing the work Americans won’t do’ - he said they ‘were all just good family-oriented people’
I read an article shortly after his election that he sent one of his henchmen to a meeting of BP agents and they were told essentially, ‘to sit down and shut up, that nothing was going to change on the border.’
He had Ramos and Campean persecuted under some law designed for drug dealers. This was done on the testimony of a drug dealer. They had to search for the dealer in Mexico, gave amnesty (this same drug dealer was caught 3 times bringing in more drugs while operating under his amnesty). This was their star witness. By the way, this administration gave this same drug dealer a bundle of money.
Ramos and Campean were used as an example of what happens to nthose who truly tried to do their job.
This President has protected, encouraged, aided and abetted this invasion. John McCain is no different.
We will never get anything done unless we open our eyes to the true facts.
The border fence in much of Texas is nothing more than a land grab - and the fence is only in pieces - with long lengths of no fence. The people who are being fenced off from their own country, are going to have some kind of ‘doors’ in this fence. It will have ‘some kind of lock or keypad’. Now we know that is going to stop those illegals, don’t we? First off, I think they can destroy the locks, second I can see some American citizens, walled off from law enforcement and their country, becoming hostages to illegals - or worse being killed by them, should they refuse to open the ‘door’.
They are coming as much as 2 miles from the river, which is the border, to place the fence.
There seems to be no end to how we will work to delude ourselves into believing our government and/or our party actually intends to do something.
Sit down sometimes, and quietly look at this fence idea and ask yourself what in the world is going on?
Re: mrbenz7, Post #83;
I’m aware of the anti-illegals measures taken in Arizona and applaud the people there for it! As a reporter, I happened to be in and around some of the urban rioting of the latter ‘60s - - and, if that kind of thing should occur again over the illegals issue - - so be it! It was handled then and it will be handled now.
Arpaio - - in spite of MUCH early criticism - - has been doing his thing now for many years - - and apparently has solid support. If officialdom took the same hardline position against illegal immigrants as he has against criminals - - I think they would succeed - - in spite of the ACLU and the do-good bleeding hearts. In fact, the laws are already on the books; the only thing missing is enforcement - - and one cannot make a very good case against enforcing existing laws (???)
I think there are probably 30-50 million Mexican nationals here illegally (with a birthrate almost triple that of Americans) - - and their presence will be the most significant social, cultural, economic and political problem facing the U.S. in the coming years.
Re: mrbenz7, Post #84;
It seems you would have to be VERY familiar with “The Conscience of The Conservative” and the politics of Barry Goldwater (???) There’s no question that Palin is quite a bit FURTHER RIGHT than Goldwater was!
To me, honestly, excluding the KKK and the George Wallace-types of course, she’s the furthest right politician I’ve ever come across - - over more decades than I’d like to admit! For me, to visualize her as President is a very, VERY creepy concept!
Sarah Palin is extremist right wing. Period.
(And, in my opinion, she’s definitely not sufficiently intellectually prepared for the job.)
Re: Ladytexan, Post #85;
I agree that each party is populated by a majority of middle-of-the-roaders! In fact, I believe 60%-65% of this country is populated by middle-of-the-roaders - - which is why I’m so “anti-extremist”.
By my own observations, the control, management and operation of both major parties rests in the hands of a minority of extremists - - maybe a 25% minority of far rightwingers in the GOP (out of about 28 million members) and a 20% minority of far leftwingers in the DEMs (out of about 41 million members) - - and the rest of us have no choice but to choose between two political extremes. You know, the Howard Deans on one side and the James Dobsons on the other.
And, of course, many voters end up simply not having a clue about the issues or the candidates - - and they vote by habituation or the slightest of feelings (right or wrong).
Re: mrbenz7, Post #86;
I could only envision maybe small scale martial law after the occurrence of extensive, very widespread, uncontrollable, violent rioting.
Check the history of rioting during the second half of the last century to see how the problem has been handled. It’s not “nice” - - and there is destruction of property, injury and even death. But, from rioting that I’ve seen firsthand, it’s a period of localized lawlessness that’s usually handled well enough by law enforcement authorities.
And, if Washington, in the person of the President, announced the government would begin a stringent crackdown, according to existing laws, on illegal immigrants “30 days from this date” - - and, in the course of that, also announced that all illegal immigrants apprehended by authorities in the course of the crackdown would be housed in Sheriff Arpaio-like detention camps in the southwest deserts until deportation could be arranged - - I believe the Mexicans would begin leaving en masse - - and the only gripers would be ACLU-types and Hispanic politicians. But, I do think an “informational” propaganda campaign - - and a crackdown on employers - - would go a long way towards diminishing the problem.
Somebody needs to be made “afraid” - - either the illegals or their employers - - and the problem will diminish.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #95;
I agree with much of what you say.
And, as I recall, this latest wave of Mexicans began in the mid-‘80s when Reagan actually issued an executive order granting “amnesty” to those illegals already here and relaxed the immigration rules, regulations and enforcement thereof.
Then - - the invasion was significantly intensified, I believe, with the Reagan/Bush I-devised and promoted North American Free Trade Agreement - - which Clinton finally signed into law in the middle of his first term. Remember - - being anti-NAFTA was Ross Perot’s primary political position when he ran for President in ‘92. And, of course, Bush II, Gore and Kerry ignored the problem in 2000 and 2004 - - and McCain has “changed his mind” on it here in 2008 - - while Obama has barely mentioned it.
Both political parties are the handmaidens of Big Business - - equally - - and it’s Big Business which wants the illegals for their cheap labor and their inability to complain to the authorities if they’re abused, overworked, or whatever. And, it’s Big Business that finances the operations of the two main political parties.
TK,
The tsunami of illegals began after the announcement of the amnesty and has continued, only growing since.
Illegals have always been part of things here in Texas. Usually, it was along the border, or coming in to do seasonal work and returning home.
Those who came inland usually were men, sometimes men and women, but not entire families, etc.
They began showing up in areas away from the border in the early to mid 70’s, but this was mainly men, younger men. They came to work at the dairies, chicken houses, etc. They would stay, work for a few months and return home. They pretty much tried to stay out of trouble.
After the announcement of the amnesty, everyone poured across that border, dragging their entire families, grandparents, aunts and uncles.
You have me curious, I truly haven’t paid any attention to Gov. Palin’s leanings.
Much of what I have read has been personal attacks, her family, and things like the fact she hunts, etc.
That has all been so hypocritical - mostly attacks by feminists because she actually dared to do what females of my years worked (quietly in our day) for - the right to make decisions as to our lives, our families, our jobs, to do a job and get paid equal pay, etc.
It seems to me she has done this, it just isn’t the lifestyle the feminists of today want anyone to have.
To say she is far right wing makes her interesting to me as I have always considered my self to the right of right wing.
Of course, as with most all other political descriptors, ‘right wing’ usually means something far different than it once did.
Yes, we may have riots, but the fact is, most illegals come to make money. They make money by working and not paying taxes, by getting freebies, by operating businesses without restraint or taxes, etc. By simply ignoring laws, regulations, etc. These people are not going to stay and fight or riot, etc.
Just enforce our laws - period.
If all that is cut off, they will go home. What you will have left will be illegals here for the express purpose of hurting this country or homegrown malcontents. Either one, I’m fine with strong law enforcement measures.
TK, I agree with you that the far extremist left of the Democrat Party controls that party, though I think the percentage of the party that fall into that category is higher than you state.
I have a problem with the numbers you state, there are 41 million Democrats, but only 28 million Republicans? I think you may be skewing the numbers a bit. I do not disagree that there are more that call themselves Democrats than Republicans, but the Republicans did not win in 2000 and 2004, and the elections of 1996 and 1992 were not so very close, if the difference between the parties numbers were that great.
You are telling me with these numbers that Independents ALWAYS vote leaning Republican as they had to do in 96 and 92 for the results to be as close as they were, and had to overwhelmingly be for Republicans in 00 and 04 for them to win. And I don’t believe that, and I suspect you also do not, but maybe are skewing the numbers to get people (posters) here to believe you?
Re: Quiet Man In Minn, Post #102;
The numbers of registered GOPs and DEMs is correct as stated. You should be able to check them yourself very easily online.
The Republican Party has ALWAYS been the minority party in terms of voter registrations - - but a great percentage of them vote than do the Democrats - - and the Republican party has been known for several recent elections for its ability “to get out the vote” in better numbers than do the DEMs.
Most public opinion research agrees that the majority of the American voting-age population is, in today’s terminology, “very slightly right of center” - - and that accounts for more Independents voting Republican in recent elections. Also, one of the largest blocs of voters is the age 65 and over population - - and they are by-and-large pretty conservative culturally, whether Democrats or Republicans - -and in recent years - - the vast majority of that group has voted Republican.
There is also a large group of Democrats referred to as “Reagan Democrats” - - and, while they may be registered Democratic, they tend to be more socially and culturally conservative than many Democrats - - and they have typically voted Republican in recent elections. I believe many of this group are older, urban area Catholics who are Democrats out of tradition.
And, of course, probably the largest voting bloc claiming to be Democrats is the under-45 age group - - and that group (especially age 35 and under) is always the least likely to vote.
And, personally, I believe there is far more “diversity” among the DEMs than the GOPs - - making it more difficult for a national candidate to develop a “majority” appeal within the party. Even now, they say many Hillary DEMs - - Hillary Clinton is a “moderate” or “centrist” - - NOT a left wing liberal - - believe Obama may be too far left of center for them - - and they will supposedly vote Republican. (???)
You can check the records of the exit polling from ‘80, ‘84, ‘88, ‘00 and ‘04 - - and you will find a small by suffucient majority of Independents voted Republican to elect Reagan twice and a Bush three times!
Ideologically-driven voters believe ONLY what supports their ideology - - whether correct and accurate - - or not. I’m certainly not trying to win “converts”. I’m an Independent - - who happens to think Bush II is the worst President this country has ever had - - that John McCain, if elected, will likely be nothing more than Bush Lite - - and that Sarah Palin is not intellectually, nor in any other way, qualified to be President. I am against “extremism” - - whether leftwing or rightwing - - and consider myself to be politically “moderate”.
What exactly is meant by ‘registered republican/democrat?
Re: Ladytexan, Post #104;
??? ... ???
“Registered Republican” and “Registered Democrat” - - as in - - “registered to vote”.
I don’t know how they do it where you live - - but when we atain voting age or otherwise wish to vote - - we have to go to the Registrar of Voters Office and officially “register” - - and - - we can “register” to vote as a member of a particular political party (necessary in my state in order to vote in primaries) - - or we can “register” to vote as an “Independent” (sometimes called “Unaffiliated”).
In my county, “Registered Republicans” outnumber “Registered Democrats” by at least 2 to 1; in my town, “Registered Republicans” outnumber “Registered Democrats” by at least 3 to 1.
I am “registered” to vote as an “Independent”. More than 40 years ago, I was once registered as a Democrat for four years; and I was once registered as a Republican from 1988 to 1992. All the rest of the time - - as an Independent.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #101;
I agree with your word “tsunami”! And with the Mexican birthrate being 2-3 times greater than America’s - - it will soon be “Tsuper Tsunami”!
Wish I knew the REAL reason politicians are avoiding the issue of illegal immigrants - - and why they’re allowing the problem to continue and grow. All I ever hear is - - the DEMs want them as future Democratic voters - - and the GOPs want them as cheap, uncomplaining labor. We definitely need a “tsunami” of protest!
Politically, in my thinking, Palin is way over there with the furthest-out of the Religious Right. But, if “religion” was the only issue involved, maybe (to me, I see the “biblical literalism” thing in a president or vice-president to be a problem - - causing me to question the individual’s judgment) - - but she’s also out there at the extreme of rightwing politics - - well beyond Bush (and, I think, even Goldwater) and any other credible national politician. I’m opposed to that kind of extremism - - right or left.
And, personally, I believe Palin to be the most intellectually-unprepared politician I’ve probably ever seen at the national level - - far less intellectually-capable than even Dan Quayle - - and Spiro Agnew (who she’s probably comparable to in terms of basic lack of necessary knowledge and extreme right, non-religion-based, wingism).
For a part of this election process, I thought I could vote for McCain - - as I would have in 2000 - - but - - after his selection of Palin - - I’ve come to question his judgment, also.
And, you know, if the farthest left on the political spectrun equals “anarchism” - - and the farthest right equals “authoritarianism” - - then maybe you don’t really want to consider yourself “right of the right wing”(???)
TK - I assume you are using an “extreme” left of left view when you say that those on the far right are the same as authoritarian? It does show to me that we are not on the same page though philosophically, as it is absolutely repugnant to me that I would be told I am an authoritarian, as that is perhaps at the very center of my beliefs, and I fear the authoritarianism that “is” what the left is all about, and socialists and communists at the far left “are” authoritarian, and I will fight them from taking my rights as an American to the end.
So kindly stop telling people that want what was traditionally American that they are authoritarian, when you “know” that the authoritarians in this country “are” those on the far left. You know that TK, and I suspect that you are being what one considers a left type of person, a person that throws untruths about what people believe in wanting to look superior to them. You can not have superiority over another, when you have to tell stories to get that superiority in your mind, and call people what they are “not”.
TK,
Thanks. No one has ever asked my party affiliation. Perhaps in all areas, you don’t have to register by party.
I don’t know enough about Gov. Palin, and I’m still scratching my head as to what she brings to the ticket. Of course, I’m confused why McCain is on the ticket as well.
Obama, I’m afraid I don’t know the real reason, the fact that he’s black is the most obvious thing he has going for him.
Joe Biden is just a politician that has been around a while - kinda neutral, I’m guessing.
AS for being ‘intellectually prepared’ - if we take a good hard look around at the condition of this country, it would seem we don’t have anyone ‘intellectual prepared’ or even anyone with two cells still sparking.
Her religion doesn’t bother me. The fact is, until President Bush got the mega churches all worked up panting for faith-based initiative and school voucher money, religion wasn’t a big deal.
These people behaved so badly and tastelessly, and un-what-I-consider-Christianly, it gave everyone a bad taste for Christians. Then this President and his ‘statements of faith’ that rang hollow. I cannot judge a person’s real walk with God, but his gave me pause.
So, before all this, Gov. Palin’s faith wouldn’t have been an issue, I don’t think. If she doesn’t try to do things that give these big churches money, there’s not much her religion can do to hurt us.
President Bush did say he talked to ‘his other father’ about invading Iraq - but I think I can assure you, God didn’t tell him to invade Iraq.
Why do I have trouble posting sometimes?
Statements like, ‘may be spam will have to be moderated’ or ‘cannot receive your comment at this time’.
Re: Quite Man In Minn, Post #107;
On the classical, simplest, old-fashioned, straighline, theoretical, political spectrum ranging from “furthest left” to “furthest right” - - the furthest left was typically labeled “Anarchy” and adherents were referred to as “anarchists”. At the opposite furthest end - - there was the opposite of anarchy - - “Authoritarianism” - - whose adherents were referred to as “authoritarians”. The concept was originally purely “political”.
Over the years, economic, social and cultural elements have been mixed in and definitions have changed - - and definitions are often different depending on the definers - - but now, any spot on the spectrum has become capable of being “ruled by a dictator” (authoritarian) - - so I suppose any and all of the terminology is arguable.
The farthest left today, here, is all about “anything goes” - - “no rules” - - “each to his own” - - “do what you want” - - “non-judgmental” - - total LACK of authority. It’s “libertinism” - - NOT “authoritarinism”.
I didn’t call anybody ANY name. All I said was that according to my perception of the definitioin of the extreme right, the poster to whom I was talking “might not want to consider yourself right of the right wing” - - because, to me, whatever one chooses to call that location on the political spectrum - - it is an EXTREME position - - and I think political extremists (left and right) suck - - and I think they are the cause of many of our political problems.
“Traditional American” - - which is what I am - - is a position slightly right of center in today’s lexicon. And most Americans today are moderate or middle-of-the-road in terms of their personal political persuasions. And, of course, one might choose to be mixed: i.e., politically liberal and socially and culturally conservative - - or politically conservative and socially and culturally liberal - - and any combo in between.
And, of course, you realize there are :“conservative” Democrats and “liberal” Republicans, do you not?
To me - - it’s the “extremism” that’s bad news - - wherever it comes from and whatever you want to call it.
TK,
Actually, I don’t think anyone can define right or left as it is used - misused - and abused these days. No one really knows what it means, because it means nothing.
When I say I am to the right of right - I mean it in the sense it was used decades ago. I believe the constitution is the only law for this federal government to use in his actions and I don’t think it should be re-interpreted everytime business and government want to grab a little more of the pie.
I believe all other power rests with the people through their state governments.
That puts me far, far to the right of most people in this country today - and all the politicians - except Ron Paul.
I learned mine from a Grandfather who was ultra conservative, Republican (old time). He also never thought there was too much wrong with a little anarchy if it was justified.
The truth is, there is no right or left anymore. Truly there isn’t. The right part of the political spectrum is ultra liberal to what it was 60 years ago. The words are meaningless and I wish we would quit using them.
If we would stop talking in terms of right/left, lib/con, rep/dem and talk about the issues and vote the issues - we might get things on tract.
Instead, the media and the politicians have so ingrained the idea of labelling everything, every issue, everyone, we keep ourselves in our own little corners, based on the labels someone else adhered to our backs.
That’s control - that’s worse than slavery. Slaves had no choice, we do and we are squandering it. There are no chains on us, just labels.
Someone once said, “I could have freed more of them if they had only known they were slaves.”
TK, it would seem to me that to imply that someone who said they were right of right and then saying it is likened to an authoritarian is an extremist statement, but I could be wrong.
Re: Ladytexan, Post #110;
I can go along with just about everything you said in this post. And, I, too, HATE the ranting and raving about “liberals”, “conservatives”, etc. It’s just another way of promoting “partisanship” - - and the extreme partisanship today is ruining the country and the government.
I am a “strict constructionist” and in most cases, I have been a “states rightist” since my youth. I am pretty damned conservative socially and culturally. And, I’ve also been a Christian “believer” all my life - - and even attended and taught at religious schools. However - - I’m not an extremist in ANY of thiese things - - and can readily accept a “moderate” or “middle of the road” political philosophy - - maybe somewhere between “Conservative Democrat” and “Liberal Republican”.
Eighteen months ago - - my favorite choice for president was - - Ron Paul.
Funny, you mention your Grandfather and what you learned from him. In my case, my Father was a Democrat - - my Mother was a Republican - - my Father’s Sister and Brother were “arch”-Republicans - - my Mother’s Sisters were “arch”-Democrats - - and, boy, there were all COMMITTED! So, I learned and lived “both sides” - - BUT - - today, I believe BOTH OF THOSE SIDES would fall somewhere “right of center” and be referred to as pretty “conservative”.
And, since you mention it - - I think we’re all “slaves” to these two damned major political parties, their policies and their ways of doing business! Really, these two parties selecting one candidate each that we have to vote for is not much different than an authoritarian state providing us with one that we have to vote for!
And, you’re right: the terms are meaningless! Try to label Bush II! Just on immigration and the socialization of financial services you’d have to call him “a liberal”!!!
RE: Quiet Man In Minn; Post #111;
The statement was simply a descriptive statement and it was posed rhetorically. So, you’re correct - - you were wrong.
TK - huh? Actually I was not wrong, as you say it was a descriptive statement, and you described LadyTexan as falling to an authoritarian extreme because she said she was right of right. And, no, TK, neither I nor LadyTexan saw what you said as rhetorical.
Do you have a problem admitting when you make an incorrect statement? It sounds like you were making an excuse so you would not have to admit you were wrong? Is that not extremist? You say you are against extremists, and that is a good thing, but I hope that you do not say that and then become extremist yourself? I don’t think that would be a good thing, and you may agree with that?
It is possible someone could describe me as an extremist. In my on philosophy and in how I try to live my life.
I also realize there are other good people with different philosphies. That’s where we negotiate and try to come to some agreement.
That doesn’t mean I’m middle of the road and it doesn’t mean the others are, either. It just means that we realize that negotiation is necessary,sometimes.
August 14 at 4:34 pm | #1 | Link
Jonathon, you need to brush up on your calculator operations: US GDP is $12 Trillion last I checked (that’s 12 followed by 12 zeros).
12,000,000,000,000 * 0.007 = 84,000,000,000
That’s 84 Billion, not 65 Billion.
Anyway you look at it, is is an enormous amount of property stolen from American taxpayers and spent to aggrandize some politicians and corrupt many other politicians.