The Frank Marshall Davis Cover-Up Is Over
AIM Column | By Cliff Kincaid | August 27, 2008
Judging by the increasing attacks on AIM and me personally for investigating this matter, we are getting too close for comfort.
Jon
Meacham writes in
Newsweek that Obama’s mentor, Frank Marshall Davis, was “a strong voice for
racial justice” and political activist whose “writings on civil-rights and
labor issues” had “prompted a McCarthyite denunciation by the House Un-American
Activities Committee.” Meacham is suggesting that Davis was the target of false allegations
that he was a communist.
While
he agrees that Davis
was one of Obama’s mentors, Meacham’s handling of the communism angle is about
as dishonest as it gets.
But
at least the name of Frank Marshall Davis is finally getting into print in the
mainstream media. It has taken months to get the truth out.
In
the first place, as Meacham surely knows, Joseph McCarthy was a senator, not a congressman.
The House committee had nothing to do with McCarthy. Second, Davis was identified as a member of the
Communist Party USA (CPUSA), controlled and subsidized by the Soviet Communist
Party and the KGB. As late as 1956, when he was called before the Senate
Internal Security Subcommittee, Davis
was still refusing to deny that he was a communist.
Wouldn’t
it be helpful if Meacham, the editor of Newsweek, would make an elementary
effort to get the facts right? But that is too much to ask when the presidency
is at stake and the media-backed candidate is trying to cover up his
controversial background.
All
of this is of no significance or consequence if you believe that communism has
been a blessing to the planet. But the editors of the Black Book of Communism, which documents about 100 million dead
from this philosophy, would disagree.
And
with Russia back on the
march, a candidate’s connection to an agent and apologist for Soviet Russia
might strike many people as decidedly newsworthy, especially when that
candidate initially refused to condemn Russia
for its invasion of Georgia.
In
Time magazine,
David Von Drehle is a bit more honest. “Like his friend Paul Robeson and
others, Davis perceived the Soviet
Union as a ‘staunch foe of racism’ (as he later put it in his
memoirs), and at one point he joined the Communist Party,” he writes. Nevertheless,
Drehle faults AIM for trying to paint a “radical” picture of Obama because of
his association with Davis.
He insists that “by the time they [Obama and Davis] met, Davis had been out of politics for decades,
and ‘mentor’ may exaggerate his role in the young man's life. Still, it’s clear
that Obama did seek advice from the old man and that what he got was
undiluted.”
It
is not a “radical” picture we paint. It is one of closely associating with an
agent of one of the bloodiest and most destructive political philosophies of
human history.
One
of the key facts that Von Drehle ignores is that Robeson, like Davis, had been a secret member of the
Communist Party USA. Also, by the time they met, 1970, Davis was still active in a CPUSA front
called the American Committee for Foreign Born. So he wasn’t “out of politics
for decades.” There’s no evidence that Davis, who died in 1987, ever stopped
being a communist.
In
any case, with these stories in Newsweek and Time, the six-month major media
campaign to ignore the Obama-Davis relationship is finally over. The admissions
of Davis’s
influence over Obama only confirm what we have been reporting since February.
Our
challenge now, as it has always been, is to demand that they tell the truth―the
full truth. Honest and objective journalism demands nothing less.
Of
course, one big reason why they are finally acknowledging the basic truth is
that Obama himself admitted that he had a relationship with Davis. The pressure was getting too big to
ignore. Obama did this in the 40-page so-called “rebuttal” to the Jerome Corsi
book, The Obama Nation. The
disclosure was made in the context of claiming, as Meacham tries to do, that Davis was not a communist
but only a civil rights activist. This is a blatant lie.
We
demonstrated in a
previous column that the article quoted by the Obama campaign, supposedly
to prove that Davis
was in favor of social and racial justice, actually included several references
to his involvement in the CPUSA and its fronts. All of these points were
carefully excluded from what the campaign provided to the media and the public.
The
Newsweek and Time treatments, as inadequate and misleading as they are,
actually represent a step forward. The Washington Post on Sunday ran a
10,000-word stunningly dishonest story about Obama growing up in Hawaii that completely ignored Davis’s critical role. The author, David
Maraniss, told us that he had concluded that even Obama had “hyped out of all
proportion” Davis’s
influence over him! Maraniss, a Pulitzer Prize-winner, insisted that Davis “did not play a
role in really shaping Obama.” He’s covering up even more than the Obama
campaign. This is pro-Obama media bias to a remarkable extreme.
Clearly,
Meacham and Von Drehle don’t buy Maraniss’s fantasy view. While Meacham dealt
with it carefully enough to shield Obama from the big questions, Von Drehle
strayed off the reservation a bit. By letting it slip that Davis was a Soviet apologist, he may have
generated some further interest in this story. Perhaps some readers may even
venture to the AIM website to see what we have in fact been writing about Davis
and Obama. It is not a pretty picture, which is why Obama covered up Davis’s true identity in
his 1995 book, Dreams From My Father. He
obviously did not ever think that a writer for a CPUSA publication, possibly
with inside information, would later identify the mysterious “Frank” as Frank
Marshall Davis.
Judging
by the increasing attacks on AIM and me personally for investigating this
matter, we are getting too close for comfort. But we will not rest until all of
the truth is told.
The
relationship took on more concern when the London Daily Telegraph reported allegations
that Davis was not only a communist but a sex
pervert and pornographer, and that he smoked dope with Obama’s grandfather,
Stanley Dunham, who had introduced Davis
to Obama when the child was only nine years of age. Dunham and Davis were
drinking buddies.
Obama
admits doing drugs in his youth, and we know that Obama talks about sharing
alcohol with Davis.
Did he share drugs with him too?
Obama,
of course, is not responsible for being put into close contact with this
alleged child molester, alcohol abuser, and pothead. Obama’s growing-up years
were sad and tragic, especially with his black father taking off and his mother
spending much of her time elsewhere. His grandparents tried their best to raise
him. But his grandfather should never have turned Obama over to Davis.
Since
Obama wants to be the president of the United States of America, with
authority over domestic and foreign policies that will affect our daily lives,
we have a right to know the nature of the Obama-Davis relationship and how it
affected his personal life and political philosophy. The media should demand
answers.
What
we already know is not comforting. In addition to the sleazy atmosphere in Davis’s home, where Obama would listen to his “poetry” and
radical diatribes, Davis
attempted to guide Obama’s conduct in life. He told Obama, for example, that
when he went to college he should not believe that [expletive deleted] about
the American way of life. Obama, by his own admission, then attends socialist
conferences and picks Marxist professors as his friends. Then he goes to Chicago and ends up in
the arms of communists and socialists who advance his political career. Davis would have been
proud.
It
would be advisable for the Obama campaign to fully disclose all of the relevant
facts about the Obama-Davis relationship. We need more, not less, information.
But
it appears that the Obama campaign has launched a coordinated attack on those
raising questions that the media won’t touch. The pathetic and deceptive
“rebuttal” to Corsi is one example of this. Another is the increasing
appearance of “progressive” voices, mostly in the form of posted comments, on
conservative-oriented websites. The AIM site, which is open for discussion, has
not been immune to this kind of assault. The attacks don’t usually dispute any
facts but instead launch personal attacks on the authors of investigative
pieces about Obama. Those who want a civil discussion of the legitimate points
made in an article are also attacked. The campaign seems desperate, as if there
is a feeling on the left that the media might eventually have to grapple with
some of these issues, that Obama can’t answer the questions himself, and that
he has to be protected from even dealing with them.
At
another level, the Obama campaign is now demanding the investigation and
prosecution of a group, known as the
American Issues Project, and one of its donors, because the organization is
running an ad about Obama’s friendly association with Bill Ayers, a major
figure in the Weather Underground Communist terrorist organization. The Obama
campaign insists that the group and the donor are operating illegally. The
American Issues Project is vigorously defending itself.
Even
here, in the case of this supposedly controversial ad, the complete truth is
not being told. It refers to the Weather Underground, which engaged in bombings
of the U.S. Capitol and other places, as an “American terrorist group” when it took direction
from foreign communists in Hanoi and Havana and even had contacts with the
Soviet KGB. An ad
from the Obama campaign, in response, insists that Ayers was only a
“radical,” that Obama denounced Ayers’ crimes, and was only eight years old
when those crimes occurred. But Obama was an adult when he launched his
political career in Ayers’ home. At that point, there was no excuse for
associating with Ayers and his wife, Bernardine Dohrn, who was also a Communist
terrorist.
“Some members of the group Ayers founded even went on to kill police,” the ad said. This is true, but it is only part of the story. Dohrn herself was implicated in the bombing of a police station that killed a policeman. In addition, an FBI undercover agent in the organization has said that Ayers himself had knowledge of bomb-making and knew about Dohrn’s role in planting the bomb killing the policeman in San Francisco. All of this was explained in our AIM Report, Blood On the Hands of Obama’s Terror Associate.
Obama
was only nine years old when he met Davis.
But he spent eight or nine critical and formative years under his tutelage. The
question, however, is not so much when he met Davis or Ayers but how much
influence they had on him, and why, in the case, of Ayers, he would openly
associate with and accept political support from him.
The
key to understanding Obama’s friendly relationship with Ayers is Davis. And we should know
a lot more about Davis
before this campaign is over. Most of the major media will stand in the way of
full disclosure because they believe that the truth can only harm their favored
candidate.
Cliff Kincaid is the Editor of the AIM Report and can be reached at (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
73 Comments
Excellent work! Persistence pays off, and no, we will not rest until the truth is everywhere and people realize what a colossally damaging and historically unprecedented mistake it would be to elect BHO.
Keep up the good work!
KINCAID WROTE: “The attacks don’t usually dispute any facts but instead launch personal attacks on the authors of investigative pieces about Obama.”
RESPONSE: I guess I must be the exception, because I have directly disputed the misrepresentations that you falsely label “facts,”
with NO answers from AIM. I have documented an extensive list of AIM’s misrepresentations on my blog, to no avail, including (but not limited to) AIM’s false claims that:
1. Davis told Obama blacks have a right to hate whites
2. Davis was a lifelong member of the Communist Party USA
3. Four different AIM misrepresentations of the 1949 Congressional testimony by Honolulu NAACP rookie board member Edward Berman, including FALSE statements that:
a. Berman criticized Davis for allegedly sneaking into NAACP meetings, while allegedly having the “avowed intent” of converting the same meetings.
b. Davis tried to take over meetings of the Honolulu NAACP
c. Davis tried to take over the NAACP itself.
d. Roy Wilkins supposedly criticized Davis directly when he “rightly noted of Davis and his comrades: they would now destroy the local branch of the NAACP.”
4. Davis was a “Stalinist,” because “He stayed with the Communist Party even after the Hitler-Stalin pact. That’s why I refer to him as `a Stalinist agent’, and that “His values, passed on to Obama, were those of a communist agent who pledged allegiance to Stalin.”
5.. False claims that claims Gerald Horne, CPUSA, “noted” that Davis “became the young man’s mentor” and influenced Obama’s “career moves” Horne actually said that Davis gave Obama career advice, rather than influencing his career moves, and did NOT state that Davis became Obama’s “mentor.”
6. Claims Obama “developed a close relationship, almost like a son, with Davis” when this is NOT supported by Obama’s book.
7. Claims that “Obama had covered up the true identity of this “Frank,” when in reality a cover-up is concealment of a scandal, which requires wrongdoing. There WAS no wrongdoing in the Davis-Obama relationship, so there was no scandal and no cover-up!
The bottom line, according to Edgar Tidwell, whom AIM’s Cliff Kincaid cites as “an expert on the life and writings of Davis,” demolishes right-wing misrepresentation of Davis’s radical influence in one simple paragraph:
“Although my research indicates that Davis joined the CPUSA as a “closet member” during World War II, there is no evidence that he was a Stalinist, or even a Party member before WWII. Further, to those attempting to make the specious stand for the concrete, there is no evidence that he instructed Barack Obama in communist ideology. Frank Marshall Davis did NOT believe in overthrowing the USA. He was committed to what the nation professed to be. For him, communism was primarily an intellectual vehicle to achieve a political end-a possible tool for gaining the constitutional freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL Americans.”
To selectively use some of Tidwell’s conclusions, without using his bottom-line conclusions, is stacking the evidence. It is intellectual dishonesty. To make all of the documented specific misrepresentations concerning the Davis-Obama relationship, which consistently exaggerate Davis’s radical influence on Obama, is journalistic fraud. Cliff Kincaid would do well to heed the lessons of Stephen Glass’s journalistic career at The New Republic magazine during the mid-1990s when HIS serial journalistic fraud was exposed. But then again, Accuracy In Media is not TRULY dedicated to accuracy in media, is it?
Kaleokualoha—
According to what you have posted here, you joined the USAF in 1969. “Sex Rebel: Black (Memoirs of a gash gourmet)” was published in 1968—written by your father. Your mother and father divorced in 1970. Obama was introduced to your father in 1970.
What is the interrelationship between these four events? Did you ever meet Obama?
Dunno about an interrelationship, but I never met Obama. When I left in 1968, my parents were still married.
A Suggestion
Fear has arisen among African-Americans. Now the FBI and Secret Service have similar concerns: the possible assassination of Obama.
Racist blogs has suggested cause for such apprehension. The arrests of Shawn Adolf, Tharin Gartrell and Nathan Johnson have pushed such issues into public awareness. I do NOT accuse AIM and its bloggers of any legal wrongs. I DO suggest self-restraint.
Comments by Nana, Hansen, cowboyup6, Oscar Y. Harward, Julie O, JayMar, Jhn Blake and Tim contain the following references to Obama: “arrogant ass,” “American traitor,” “Osambama,” “a true closet muslim and marxist,” “dirtier than a pig in a mud puddle,” “Osama Obama,” “Barry’s Marxist promises,” “Barry Obama,” “Sheik Obama,” “anti-American,” “treasonous snake,” “creep” and “[not] a good American.” Other AIM bloggers have avoided such insults but still have accused Obama of evil intentions and associations.
Such comments enjoy First Amendment protection. None constitute actionable threats nor legal jeopardy. However, they contribute to paranoid hate, raising questions of moral responsibility.
An atmosphere of conspiracy theories, vicious lies, unfounded fears, accusations of treason etc. surrounded Timothy McVeigh and many Militia Movement members. McVeigh and Nichols alone (it seems) acted on such imbecility. But their mass murders were motivated by such “thinking.”
Those that do so have every right to express anti-Obama sentiments. They have the right to vent almost any statement in his regard. BUT I SUGGEST AWARENESS OF POSSIBLE RAMIFICATIONS. It is irresponsible to foment assassination fantasies in unstable minds. (Consider the shining example of Fred Miles.) It is more dangerous to inspire, even unintentionally, individuals prepared to act on such notions.Please, consider the possible consequences of your words.
There are sensible reasons to oppose Obama’s election. There are, I think, more to support him for president. However, reason should prevail. Much of that appears on AIM descends into bizarre paranoia. If any harm, even if distantly related to such comments, should befall Obama, that would raise questions of moral responsibility. The murder of outstanding African-Americans has been frequent.Our society is less racist than before. But the poison festers here and there. What might result from such, after the first African-American’s major party nomination? Do any of us want a contemporary imitator of James Earl Ray?
FOR LOVE OF ALL THINGS HOLY, CONSIDER THAT WORDS HAVE CONSEQUENCES - EVEN IF UNINTENDED.
Brian Sullivan-it is quite fair to call for calm debate of the issues. There is no good to be had from using abusive terms or making claims that are unfounded.
There is however no good reason to suppress the truth about Obama or any other public figure because some lunatic might abuse it.
By my standards Obama gives me grave cause for concern. I am not an American, but where America goes, so goes the world. Every freedom loving person in the world should be very interested in who becomes US president.
While knocking off the abuse is good sense, those who seek to uncover the truth about Obama should in no way be inhibited in alerting American voters by the possibility of some madman going over the top.
Someone physically harming Obama is my worst nightmare, but truth must out.
Thankfully Obama is well protected by a very vigilant secret service.
Unfortunately the American public is not so well protected by a vigilant mainstream media.
That is why our efforts to find out the truth about Obama must continue.
Trevor Loudon
Thank you for posting the truth Mr. Kincaid. Now I know why the left wants to push the “Fairness Doctrine” (read censorship) to the Internet - to silence anyone who disagrees with the government.
For anyone interested, you may wish to click on this link on a letter sent out to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi on August 23, 2008 shown in the URL.
Correction from earlier link. It is shown below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Miller17CU94//An_open_letter_to_Nancy_Pelosi
Sorry about that.
What they try to hide now, is what they plan to keep hidden with the “fairness Doctrine”. Good work…the word will get out!!
M. K. Davis’ above defense by attacking AIM misses with the very last line of the quote he uses.
“For him, communism was primarily an intellectual vehicle to achieve a political end-a possible tool for gaining the constitutional freedoms of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for ALL Americans.”
The fact that it was a primarily an intellectual pursuit doesn’t change the violent nature of the idealology he joined!!!
Great letter, Chris. Hope it gets the attention it deserves.
Thank you Mr. Kincaid for your hard work in revealing this Obama background. Obama needs to personally address these issues and set us straight if need be. Instead, his supporters suggest Kincaid is completely fabricating his research,call him names and attempt to suppress the information. The problem for Obama is that his association with Davis is not the only radical one bringing into question the influences shaping him.
One minor nit about your post, Major:
Adolph, Gartrell, and Johnson seem to be small-time meth dealers who happened to be picked up in the increased security activities in Denver this week. Granted they are nuts and have blathered irrational racist garbage (which put them on the radar screen). Granted such unstable idiots could try something as dastardly as you suggest.
Being circumspect in what you said and rational in your thinking is indeed welcome advice.
(OK, two nits: McVeigh and Nichols may well have been aided, abetted, and encouraged by one of Saddam’s intelligence agents (Hussain Al-Hussaini), the so-called John Doe #2. The truth or untruth of that may never come out, unfortunately. McVeigh’s writings in prison would seem to indicate support for Saddam and Iraq.)
Dear Messrs. Chris, jbird and voxounreason,
Don’t give up! Remember, truth is lies, ignorance is strength. Repeat over and over: “Truth is lies! Ignorance is strength!” After a while, by some strange magic, those words will become true. Don’t believe me? Try it and see.
I disagree with you, John Galt. It is NOT one of the better posts of Sullivan. He also posted the exact same post on three other threads on the AIM site. He is trying to influence what posters on this site say under the guise that we must be civil in our discussions - this from the man who is NEVER civil when he berates and intimidates the posters on this site.
It is typical of the left to cast the first stones. When Sullivan first started posting on this site every word out of his mouth was derogatory towards the Conservative leaning opinion on this site, and this IS a Conservative oriented site. He has cowed, intimidated, and threathened posters throughout the near two weeks he has been posting here. Every single word one can imagine to call someone ignorant and stupid this man has used to label the posters here.
And now HE wants to tell us what is civil and uncivil. Wake up folks, this is what the left is all about - they believe it is their DUTY to tell people what is acceptable speech and what is not. Then go back and actually look at the words that he lists as unacceptable. Are they really that unacceptable? The words that have come out of the mouth of Sullivan are far more unacceptable than these mere words.
He even stoops so low to mention the three men arrested in a Denver suburb. Colorado authorities and the Secret Service have very purposely come out and said this had nothing whatsoever to do with Obama - it was all media hype. Those minor words that Sullivan uses as examples will supposedly incite people to make an attempt on Obama’s life - I hardly doubt it. But the words of personal put down that Sullivan says in every post when he attacks posters at this site, those are words that can incite people to go after Sullivan. Yet, people here have not even suggested they want Sullivan’s blood. IN FACT, Sullivan has been the one to make threats against people here. He seems to think he has a Constitutional RIGHT to CONFRNT those that slap him back in the face that which he slaps into their face in the FIRST place.
To the left, the mere mild words he states in his post are not mere mild words - thay are unacceptable and the left ONLY allows Politically Correct (PC) speech. Oh, EXCEPT, when it is them doing the attacking - think back over the last 8 odd years to the language from the left against George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, etc etc. That is acceptable speech to the left and they have been particularly nasty in the slime that comes out of their mouth. Even their slinky slut Madonna called McCain - Hitler. Now that is not acceptable - but to people like Sullivan that IS acceptable.
So do not be fooled by the call for calm, John Galt and Trevor Loudon. Sullivan’s faked concern that inciteful words that cause attempts on Obama is all one-sided. First of all, these words are not inciteful, they are mere adjectives to describe Obama as Conservatives SEE him, and they are mild. Second, Sullivan has used far worse words to describe posters on this site, words that are inciteful. And in spite of that trash from his mouth, the only inciter and person being incited on this site is people like Sullivan. This is actually a push to control speech by Sullivan, he is trying to pull our teeth, which is the reason he is even on this site in the first place. He is like the snake oil salesman Obama - he is trying to con us into using what he calls PC speech, while he has no intention of using the same in return. You see, when he talks to people here, he uses every word imaginable to call them stupid and ignorant, and labels them as psycho and worse, and in his PC mind this is acceptable. Liberals are really good at using the word ignorant - because they actually think in their warped minds that people that do not agree with them completely ARE ignorant. Sullivan is arrogant and smug in his put downs. The left is nasty to the extreme when they put down those they do not agree with, but if you use the same words in return they cry - foul!
Finally, lets look at the words that Sullivan sees as offensive and inciteful:
Obama is an arrogant ass - and he is, the way he struts and pontifies. American Traitor - yes he is, he wishes the ruin of America. Osamaobama - he would rather negoitiate with those that hate us and want to slay us - and has tried to end the War in Iraq repeatedly - by running up the surrender flag. A true closet muslim and marxist - he seems to be certainly marxist and as for Muslim - he would rather talk to them then fight them. Barry’s marxist promises - is there any other way to say it, as everything he promises is Marxist. Barry Obama - not what could possibly be offensive about that? It’s what he calls himself as a nick name. Sheik Obama - he loves the Muslims. Anti-American, and he certainly is. Treasonous Snake, well he is a snake oil salesman, and that which he wishes to do in America are certainly treasonous. Creep - okay, naughty naughty, let’s not call Osamabama a creep any more - WOW! that’s just terrible. And finally, he is not a good American.
And the hint of racism that Sullivan makes. There has NOT been one racist word said about Obama on this site. In fact, the racism comes from when Obama constantly drops the racism card to shut up his opponents, and has just been dropped by Sullivan. And this comes from a man, that attended that racist church of Rev Wright for over 20 years - had speakers like that racist Catholic priest who also heads a racist Catholic congregation. Now that is racial hate - and that has no been a part of the comments on this site.
Sullivan wishes use to use PC speech, but PC speech as they see it, but they are the worse transgressors, and they have no problem of inciting in return. Look at Sullivan’s suggestion as it should be looked at - he wishes to control.
Be the true Conservatives that you are, when the left tells us to use PC speech, use the NON PC speech. Do not allow an authoritarian government to tell you what you will say and what you will not. So all together now - Obama is an arrogant ass!!!
Dear Master Hansen,
For the nth time, please quote me in regard to threats that I made. Please re-read my blog about threats to Obama. Where did I call for civility and acceptable speech/words? What does it mean that I am an inciter?... that I somehow forced or convinced you to use the obsenities and profanities you have employed? Would you like me to repeat them for those interested? Calling you ignorant and stupid, and the others I so designated, is simply the truth. More to the point, I cited specific examples each time I did so and explained why such comments ran in the face of reality. I also pointed out that you were, and are, a fool. Calling the FBI about my supposed threats, informing me that I would soon be in jail, warning some Marine colonel that I posed a danger to national security, stating that my clearances would be revoked (that, I must admit, was truly amusing), failing to realize your interlocutors were humoring you to get rid of you, arguing that I was a psychotic and should be institutionalized, displaying an infantile obsession with feces, insisting that I would be banned from this site - who else but someone WANTING to humiliate themselves would do such things? I don’t know why you want to bring contempt and derision upon yourself. I can only guess that, on some fundamental level, you feel you should be so regarded.
Finally, I remain astounded that you think I am a leftist, a liberal and that I insist on Politically Correct thinking. Where did you get such assumptions? Do you think that pointing out ignorant misunderstandings of such concepts means that I hold them? Do you think that I would spend over a year killing Communists if I were a leftist? As for being PC, from the time I confronted Mark Rudd and the weirdo JJ (lately dead of cancer while hiding out under a pseudonym in British Columbia - deo gratias!) back in 1967 at the Sun Dial to last week when I argued with a book store clerk for over an hour that Bush is not a Fascist, I have been an enemy of such tyranny over the mind of man.
But why should I go on, son of darkness? If you want confirmation of the above, send me some anonymous mailing address and I will post you a complete set of copies of all these blogs over the past two weeks or so. Still, I imagine that would make no difference. You would almost certainly go on worshipping in deeds the Prince of Lies. (That is an incorrect form of worship, to be sure. In pointlessness, rather like worshipping one’s stomach. Do you do that, too?)But I do feel a moral obligation to try to combat your horrendous aversion to the truth, if you request.
After doing my homework, studing History, and reading hundreds of articles from just about everywhere and listening to Obama and the herd on both sides of gov. Rep and Dem, and oncfirning it with the gov web, to see who did what and who signed in what to law etc..I see both as one bird. Second. I have found from my missionaries in Kenya , Obama and all his family say he was born there and his mom flew to Hawaii right after. His birth certificate is Kenya, with a citizenship in another country. All his friends in college and his life were all commie’s , black panthers and Islam. Even his own family say he is arab..and Islam was the first slave runners in the world. Obama knows he is a Muslim.their law says if you are born into it you are one. And their laws states NO ONE dare name their child Hussien or MOhammad unless they are a Muslim. And they say they can lie for Allah. They also said they would have their flag over our white house and in state and federal jobs. they do have much of this..How many know the new school books are watered down paid for by Saudi..and all PC..In my old age I would have to be stupid to not see all that is happening confirmird by scripture..America has a new moral standard. G-d out, feeling in and most out there think that the gov will save them while at this very minute they are signing us over to the UN and EU..just like last week the congress gave the UN more power..tho we the people voted to have the UN out..but the word DEMOCRACY is world wide, shoving it down everyones throats..It would be wonderful if America woke up and realized WE ARE A REPUBLIC,,where we vote and the gov serves us..And just for a voice of my own…IF i had not known better after the Dec convention ..I would say I was a Democrat once more…all the tears, family,,boo hoo..but I did not miss all the lies, flip flops of who thot what and said so not long ago..The scripture warns us Satan comes as a ANGEL of LIGHT..HELLO..HE is a liar and the fATHER of lies…makes all feel so good.I am grieved for the world, America and Israel and the people around the world who are caught between a rock and the hard spots ,,and we are becoming a sunken nation without G-d as we have let gov throw HIM OUT>.Many will be sorry if they aren’t already, the blacks and gays will find out what Islam thinks of them..to say nothing of Christians and Jews…unless they all bow ,,they will be killed just like over younder !! and it has started here with so called honor killings..Isn’t it odd to hear how so many say they love the Jewish G-d the only real G-d but hate the Jews?? GEnesis 12 tells us G-d says they are cursed and HE doesn’t change and is the same today , yesterday and forever..He also says all liars..not some,,but all liars will have their place in the lake of fire…Maybe they think HE is kidding. He also warns of those who add to or take away from His Word..but men are belived more than G-d..I think the world will have a rude awakening and Ezekiel 14 tells us what he plans to do with all the nations who hurt or take the land from Israel and give it to the enemy…He also said all nations are ran by the god of this world…He is coming..and many will be destroyed by lack of knowledge and will ahve no excuse..We are commanded to know prophecy..as G-d does nothing least HE tells us in His word first..Maybe some bright minds will go read Ezekiel and tremble as the storms come on America that the nuts like Al Gore call global warming..but it is really Global WARNING..how many notice that everytime Israel is pressured to give up HIS HOLY HILL, and give up Jerusalem, which HE said would never happen,,is going to be destroyed by HIm,,,we all have a choice..HIM or MONEY…no one can sit on the fence..as it is written..NO one is worth loosing your very soul..men never saved anyone..and never will..Satan uses tears, yelling, lies and all else to sway you..I hope you all wake up soon-time is all but up…anyone can call them selves a Christian but real believers and lovers of G-d do not kill babies in or out of the womb..nor does G-d except same sex couples, married or not, as it is written..HIS WORD IS TRUTH..what you think is truth doesn’t matter..only G-d’s word matters..
Oh Brian, you deluded man:
I have never once said you would be in jail, I have never once said that your security clearances would be withdrawn. Yes, after your unveiled threat of bodily harm to a poster at this site, I did believe you had crossed a line between acceptable behavior and unacceptable behavior. In fact, google youself, you will see words on google from me, and they start: Sir, you go to far. That is the first time I confronted you after you had belittled every single person that had posted up to that point, and cowed them and intimidated them.
At this point I finally spoke up, and now you even twist that. And YOU are the one that constantly uses words to tell people they are crazy and insane, I just turned your words around and said the same to you. You can dish it out, you pathetic slime, but you can’t take that which you dish.
Jack:
I presume you have some respect for my opinions, as you’ve indicated agreement with many of my postings, so at the risk of losing that respect I offer another opinion for you.
Major Sullivan, while aggressive and certainly too personal in many of his arguments has some very good points to make about reason and un-reason/irrationality. Obviously many here took personal offense at his dismantling of their postings here (myself included). Perfectly understandable.
But you seem to have taken it as your personal “mission” to attempt to impugn him, turn others here against so much as reading and thoughtfully considering what he has written, indeed even to get him banned from posting here. The more you strive to accomplish this mission, the more irrational, indeed pathological you appear, especially in your assertion that he is posting here under multiple pseudonyms.
In my opinion you need to “chill out” and read Sullivan’s postings objectively. There are many gems to be found in them if you think rather than react. Earlier you indicated you’d love to tap his military and history knowledge: by all means do so. (I seem to have blown that opportunity, unfortunately.)
Please heed your own warning about Google and my warning about it being both your best friend and worst nightmare.
Over the last 15 presidential elections that I’ve been able to observe, I’ve never seen such provocateurship as provided by Kincaid and others herein - - and I’ve never seen such personal paranoia and hate so openly expressed - - all the while masquerading as “investigative journalism” and “intellectual discourse”.
And, if some of the personalized trash posted here was posted by supposed and/or self-described active “Christians” - - then I can certainly say I’ve also witnessed the definition of “hypocrisy” in action!
Apparently, many people have extreme difficulty in synthesizing their freedom of speech with truly Christian principals.
The last time I saw such inflammatory rhetoric (and equally clear-cut prejudice) being used in a political campaign, it came against the “Catholicism” of JFK and was, like now, most often offered from the lips and pens of supposed (Protestant)“Christians”.
In my experience, those who are the most self-righteous are often the most personally impaired.
Apparently, supposedly learned and acculturated Americans can be as vicious and venomous in their personas and in their extremist partisanship as can Al Queda and Taliban terrorists and Muslim fundamentalists. A pretty revolting (and disappointing) development!
Dear John Galt:
Thank you for your post. I still go after Sullivan because Sullivan goes after posters to this site. I do read each one of his posts, but when I get to the point that he slanders whomever he is answering with words indicating their ignorance - what may be gained by listening constructively to what he reads, is lost when one considers how he delivers it.
As for AIM, I did not contact AIM, they contacted me, and I responded. It is they that informed me that several posters at this site had been traced back to his IP address. This did not surprise me, as there were a couple on the site, that while different in how they posted from Sullivan, their ways of argument and smuggly looking down on those they disagreed with, made me wonder if they were actually Sullivan using different names. And actually a couple of those that traced back to the same IP did surprise me. With the complaints that AIM stated that they had received about Sullivan, they were wondering how to take care of the problem. They knew if they banned him, he could just come back as someone else. The last I heard, a week ago now, they were thinking of either deleting his offensive posts or having them edited - but their budget does not allow them to have a moderator.
When Sullivan stops belittling others, I will stop returning my belittling of him. As to my post on his suggestion we all cool it. I saw the arrogance in it. The worst offender is him, and he is going to preach to us, what is acceptable words to be used on this site. I have had to suffer through college classes where the intent was to indoctrinate what is acceptable and PC to be said. Yet, those (including Sullivan) seem to think we should not use the words they find offensive, but they can continue to use the words we find offensive.
And besides, look at that list of his, that he called offensive - there is not an offensive word except for perhaps - creep. It is how Conservatives think about Obama and his beliefs, and that to Conservatives is not offensive, nor should it be except to the ultrasensitive - those ultrasensitive that have no problem calling Bush and Cheney as Hitler.
There was a point, John Galt, that for three or four days, where every time Sullivan started spewing that all other posters, when berated, left the site. And you know that. Some came back, and I wonder how many did not?? But then he beat on them some more - and they left again.
Now the posters have pretty much had their fill of Sullivan, dave and BlackHat (who did I miss) and they are slamming back - and thank God for that. I was wondering there for a time whether Sullivan etal would drive all Conservative leaning posters away from a Conservative intended posting site. You were here, Mr Galt when Sullivan was doing this.
I can be as reasonable as the next person, Mr Galt, but Sullivan has not changed, he still belittles and bullies, and until he stops, I will not. Do you notice that I do not talk in such a way to any of the other posters? Why is that? Because they do not belittle and talk down smuggly to others in a way to shut them up. Sullivan is arrogant and just plain mean - I have no use for bullies, and have no use for people that try to con and manipulate others as he tried to do by declaring what is acceptable speech.
Though you are correct in one thing. Loving Military History, after googling him, I would have normally wanted to have picked his brain. But consider the source, if he is this way to people he does not know, can he actually keep his arrogance and ego from coming out in his books - I doubt it!
Brian: Don’t give up! Remember, truth is lies, ignorance is strength. Repeat over and over: “Truth is lies! Ignorance is strength!” After a while, by some strange magic, those words will become true. Don’t believe me? Try it and see.
“Don’t believe me? Try it and see.”
Please spare me your “advice.” You seem to have right much experience in this area of repetitious chants. I have better luck with the Lord’s Prayer. Besides, what gives you the idea that I would believe anything you wrote in the first place? You’re a bitter old fart with WAY too much time on your hands.
But if your suggested method works for you, that explains a lot about you!
Personally, I think you should take up frequent masturbation. At least the possibility exists that you MAY see some results!
Good luck with your inferiority complex.
;>)
“Stacking the evidence” is more commonly known as the “fallacy of one-sidedness”:
One-sidedness is fallacious in contexts where we have a right to demand objectivity. Two such contexts are news stories and scientific or other scholarly writing:
Most major American newspapers aspire to a reputation for objectivity, or fairness, on their news pages. For instance, they restrict partisan political commentary to the editorial and op-ed (“opposite the editorial”) pages. News stories, of course, are not usually arguments, so it would be—strictly speaking—incorrect to accuse a biased story of committing the fallacy of One-sidedness. Since it isn’t an argument at all, it isn’t a fallacious argument. But slanting in a news story may lead the reader into drawing false conclusions, which means that the story is a boobytrap, and the reader’s reasoning is fallacious, albeit inadvertently.
[END QUOTE]- fallacyfiles.org
Do we or do we not have an expectation of objectivity from Accuracy In Media? Should AIM be held to actual standards of “fairness, balance and accuracy in news reporting,” or is stacking the evidence acceptable from AIM while unacceptable from others? Wouldn’t that be the epitome of hypocrisy from an organization that CLAIMS “accuracy in news reporting”?
Your thoughts, please. I’m sure journalism students (and other concerned Americans) would like to know.
“... It is they [AIM] that informed me that several posters at this site had been traced back to his IP address. ...” - JH Hansen
You apparently missed my post advising you to look up “Network Address Translation” (aka IP Masquerading) on wikipedia. Any large private network (including Internet Service Provider networks) utilize this technique both for conservation of Internet-routable address space and for network security purposes.
It takes a LOT more skill and work than looking at an (apparent) source IP address to find out which specific computer a message originated from. If AIM can’t afford a moderator, they likely can’t afford a security professional either and likely rely on some web hosting provider to manage this site.
Dear Mr. Hansen,
I am going to write as simply and clearly as I can.
These blogs contain assertions that Obama is a Communist. Others claim he is connected to al Qaeda. Some contain both notions. I THINK YOU WOULD AGREE.
Others go farther and state Obama is part of a Communist conspiracy to take over the US or is the pawn of such plotters. Some blogs contain accusations that if, in office, Obama will ally with Osama bin-Laden. I THINK YOU WOULD ACCEPT MY STATEMENTS AS TRUE.
Some people who blog here, notably ONV and the delusional anti-Semite, Fred Miles, offer signs of mental instability. Who knows who may be reading these blogs but who do not make comments? I have no way to know that but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me. YOU MAY NOT ACCEPT MY OPINIONS ABOUT THE MENTAL FACULTIES OF ONV AND MILES. I DO BELIEVE YOU CAN ACCEPT THE IDEA THAT UNSTABLE PERSONS MAY READ THESE BLOGS.
You leaped to the conclusion that I had threatened death to others. You alerted both the FBI and a Marine Corps officer. You indicated fear for yourself. THESE ARE INDISPUTABLE FACTS.
What if an unstable or delusional person took what he/she read the afore-mentioned blogs as true. They would fear Obama presented a serious threat to the American people. Worse, they might act on such fears. I HAVE NO WAY TO TELL IF SUCH IS IS HAPPENING. BUT IT DOES SEEM REASONABLE TO FEAR SUCH. I CAN ASSURE YOU FROM PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE SUCH CONCERNS ARE PRESENTLY PRESENTING GREAT WORRY TO THE FBI AND SECRET SERVICE.
I assure you that the pathetic losers recently arrested are NOT the only persons making such threats.
You dismiss my “suggestion” as aattempting censorship or intimidation. But you fail to note your own logic. You seem to have sincerely believed that I was capable of murder; that I was provoked by reading statements on these blog sites. It seems very possible that a person could decide to free his country from what he/she was convinced from this site were the treason, tyrannical plots, Communist economics, plans to impose Islam on the US and other such ideas. Might not such attempt assassination of the horrid person he/she believed Obama to be?
I DON’T CLAIM THAT ANYTHING LIKE THAT WILL LEAD TO ACTION. HOW COULD I KNOW? BUT I DO WORRY THAT THE EXTREME AND HATE-FILLED COMMENTS ON THESE BLOGS MIGHT SO INSPIRE A KILLER.
We Americans have a history involving the murder of prominent African-Americans. I think all of us agree that rabid racism still influences some Americans, probably tens of millions. The Secret Service could not prevent the murder of JFK. Reagan was shot despite greatly improved security imposed after the Kennedy assassination. Still, Hinkley not only shot him but came far, far closer to killing the president than most people realize. And our present chief executive was the target of a live hand grenade thrown at him in Tiblisi. True, the grenade did not explode. But it landed very close. The Secret Service not only failed to prevent that, the agents did not notice the event at all. Only the next day was the grenade discovered.
THIS IS WHY I WROTE WHAT I DID. HOWEVER, I THINK YOU ARE IN DENIAL, AS USUAL, REGARDING FACTS THAT THREATEN YOUR WELTANSCHAUUNG.
Obama has so many thorns in his side, he looks like a cactus. Ayers was only one. What of the over $800,000 he gave to CSI/ACORN? (I put the / because they are in the same building, and three
directors of CSI are leaders in ACORN, and
I think I read that in a 2006 ACORN publication, CSI is described as ACORN’S campaign entity. Is there a fiscal/ideological umbical cord there?)
ACORN has a long, repeated history of voter registration fraud; even just sitting in a library and pulling names from phone book. Check out on a search machine out on search machines, as I did..under ACORN, CSI directors. Articles are on some other sites on the subjects as well.
I recently read that in one state 75,000 voter registrations are in question for voter fraud. That’s not peanuts. And we have 50 states! (Obama maybe mixed up the 57 states in the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), instead of the 50 in the US, I guess) Did he forget who his audience was?
Ayers may have had some influence over Obama, but what I find troublesome NOW is Obama’s camp warning TV stations NOT to run an ad. THAT IS BEE EYE GEE… BIG time notice to the American people, I would assume. I think I also read of some Iraqi billionaire threatening reporters about the Rezko business.
We’re maybe looking at muzzling freedom of speech…gagging a free press???? That’s serious
business. So where is the FEC? The ACLU?
WORSE: where are the American’s citizens outrage that their Senators/Representatives, and the FEC haven’t got their phones ringing off the hooks, or their fax machines running 24x7 stating what should be, I would think, our outrage of such attack on Free Speech, Free Press, and maybe intrusion/disruption (maybe corruption?)in the election process?
If you take the time to make a comment at any site, YOU HAVE THE TIME TO CALL SOME SENATORS, etc. “Can you hear me now?”
Carolyn: Stations decline ads all the time. Deceptive advertising is often declined. What ad is involved?
Dear Master Hansen,
you are either a liar or suffer serious memory problems. You wrote: “I have never once said you would be in jail, I have never once said that your security clearances would be withdrawn.” But you did. Please consult your acquaintances at AIM and get copies of your older blogs to me.
In addition, you referred to my: “unveiled threat of bodily harm to a poster at this site…” That is untrue, I have copies of all my blogs and know I made no such statement. If I had, wouldn’t I have been contacted by the FBI or the police? Again, please contact AIM if you do not have a copy of the blog to which you refer.
You describe me as: “constantly [using] words to tell people they are crazy and insane.” Well, leaving aside the question of how you distinguish between “crazy” adn “insane,” and your use of “constantly” when I suppose you mean “frequently,” again I request some precise quotations. I know what I wrote. But, as you frequently blog to others, you ascribe words to them they never wrote and jump to false conclusions about that they meant. I can supply chapter and verse on your statements to others in these regards.
While less culpable on your part, the following statement amazes me: “You can dish it out, you pathetic slime, but you can’t take that which you dish.” I can’t? Please give me an example. Do you remember my reactions to your and ONV’s obscenties and profanities. Did I reply in kind? Did I act intimidated? Did I protest? As far as I can tell, your ascribe to me what you despise in yourself. But as for not being able to “take it,” I’ve been the way I am all my life. I’m still standing and those who tried to kill me are mostly dead at my hands. (Do you think that is a threat? It is simply a fact, not intended to intimidate anyone, even you. But I so state to underline how preposterous your words are.)
This in conjunction with the other reporting you have done on Rezko and his Arab connections, along with Rev Wright, Ayers, Dohrn, the Chicago political machine, all fit the behavior pattern of the “radical” I came to know growning up in the 60’s. I firmly believe that Obama is a “radical” trying to hide in plain sight.
Dear Mr. Morris,
I firmly believe you are a fool. Millions and millions of people considered themselves radicals 40 years ago. Then they had to make a living and soon blended in with the rest of us, having to meet mortgage and car payments and come up with their kids’ tuition. So, this supposed pattern fits Obama? Oh yeah, what’s that? Do tell.
Brian, Brian, Brian:
I was prepared to write a completely civil post in answer to your post #26, and then when I came on site, I read post #29, and you are returning to the man that I despise.
Most of what you state in Post #26 is plausible, I will not deny. And certainly there are people in this world that are mentally unstable. And according to you, in nearly every post where you are answering what another poster said, you use such words to describe the commenter - so if I am to believe you, then most on this site are mentally unstable - including myself. Which begs the question - if I am so mentally unstable, why would you try to make common cause with me to tone down the rhetoric on this site?
The dilemma we have is what Conservatives see as unreasonable rhetoric and what Liberals see as unreasonable. Most of the adjectives that you used in your original “Suggestion” post to illustrate are not unreasonable to Conservatives, and obviously drive Liberals berserk - heck the title of the thread - Obama’s Red Mentor is a Pervert - I thought, would drive Liberals berserk! I know that, to Conservatives, to call John McCain and George Bush - Hitler, is despicable, yet Liberals consider that reasonable. And I don’t even like McCain or Bush myself.
Anyway, I suspect this has been talked about long enough on the various threads, that one will see a bit of toning down, just because.
So I will go to your post #29. I did not say, I feared you would murder someone - though when you made your unveiled threat, I feared then that you were capable of great bodily harm, and meant to do such, if you had the chance to confront the person you were attacking. And once again, I DID NOT say you would be in jail. I did say, that I think you should be in jail. I did not talk to the Marine Corps to take your security clearances, as you had already stated you no longer had any such clearances in one of the many times that you boringly tell everyone about all your greatness. But, because of the unveiled threat, and the belligerence that you had shown up to that point, I indeed did believe that it was important that the Corps know of your present mental state, and that should they be considering you for future security clearances, then they need to take into account how you converse with others.
And finally, I do not remember of anyone on this site saying that Obama would ally himself with Osama Bin Laden. I do believe that Obama’s sheer leftness is that he is beyond just mild Socialism and is into Authoritarian State Control of the People in everything they can - ande that Brian is Communism, that is Fascism, and that is Nazism, pure and simple. And I firmly believe that - though I do believe that Obama is more a puppet than the real leader, just as I see Pelosi and Reid as more puppets. I understand how the Party hierarchy structures operate - and both made it far to quickly to the heads of their respective houses of Congress, and frankly, to me, they have not shown me that they have the intelligence to be in the positions that they are. But all three, Obama, Pelosi, and Reid, seem to be adequate spokesmen for whomever is pulling their strings.
Now having said all that, I suggest you go to the Daily KOS, and make the “suggestion” that they calm down their rhetoric as it might make deranged people go out and want to assassinate people. I suggest that they will think you so daft, they will ban you just for the suggestion.
So I say again, the adjectives you used that describe words made by posters on this site are really very very mild to Conservatives, and if they were anywhere near as deranged as the majority of posters at the KOS, then rhetoric here would be really over the hill. So clean up your side of the street first, the really filthy side of the street, before you come over to our side of the street and want to clean up the little tiny mess over here.
But I did agree that people at this site, shouldn’t call Obama a creep - naughty, naughty!
Obama isn’t a radical? Voted to let aborted babys die rather than give them medical care.
Has proposed close to 3 trillion in new spending.
attended a racist church for 20 years. Refused to denounce Wright. Pals around with William Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn. Both unrepentant terrorists. Had questionable dealings with Rezko. Most liberal senator in the country.
What is so appealing about this guy that you would suppot him?
From the first BRS post that I read I was convinced that he is a pompous ass. Nothing I have read since alters that opinion. But maybe since I am so limited in my mental facilities maybe I should not express my opinion. Opinion expression is only for the elite, such as BRS.
One thing is certain AIM will still be in business of probing for truth after BRS has moved on.
Keco writes:
Obama isn’t a radical? Voted to let aborted babys die rather than give them medical care.
Has proposed close to 3 trillion in new spending.
Attended a racist church for 20 years. Refused to denounce Wright. Pals around with William Ayers and Bernadine Dorhn. Both unrepentant terrorists. Had questionable dealings with Rezko. Most liberal senator in the country.
What is so appealing about this guy that you would support him?
I have nothing significnt to add to this, but thought it looked great in print, so I’m just quoting it to give it more exposure. He raises some excellent points. Yeah, we’ve heard ‘em before, but get used to such statements: you’re going to be hearing a lot more of the same kind of comments.
I have faith in the American people to realize that they’ve been had…and react in a highly-negative way.
Can’t wait for McCain’s campaign ads, but looks like he’s going to fumble the ball again with his veep pick. Not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Sen Hutchinson of TX was THE pick; McCain was the “maverick,” ie, does stupid things just for the hell of it. Then again, he’s not bright enough to be a radical mole.
Old Navy Vet’s post #34 is good, too. So true.
Sorry, dave: no PROOF!
Mr. Hansen,
Have you re-read your blogs? If you don’t have them, did you ask acquaintances at AIM to retrieve them and send you copies? I’m pretty sure that you did not, in either case.
I have copies in front of me. Every word I wrote to you regarding your statements can be documented. I offered to send you copies to a “safe” address. You did not respond. Nor have you answered my questions in regard to quoting me. If I have stated what you claim - “unveiled threats” for example - please cite date, location and complete quotation within context. The problem is, however, that is impossible. I made no such statements. (Did you ever wonder why the supposed object of my supposed threats did not act as you did? Does that not indicate you are delusional? If I thought that someone was threatening me with bodily harm or death, I would certainly not depend on another to report such. Would you or, more to the point, someone else capable of reason do so?)
If you like, I will request my FBI file under the FOIA. As I mentioned previously, while your name will be blacked out, it will be clear from the date and subject of the report what you stated to that FBI agent. I can do the same with the anonymous Marine colonel. (By the way, what was his name?)However, I very much doubt that he did anything at all, apart from humoring you. While I don’t need his mane, only the date approximate date, 15-17 August, to submit a valid FOIA request, the colonel’s name would speed the process. Again, if you like, I can supply you with the relevant documents - although FOIA requests are usually granted only in 12-18 months.
Perhaps, in the meantime, you might issue a general query to inquire if what I have stated is or is not true in these regards.
I am more and more convinced that you are not a liar in the sense that you make deliberate falsehoods. But your denials of what are objective truths - that is, facts - strongly suggests that there is something seriously wrong with your thinking processes. As to why, I don’t know, obviously. But you do seem to be in retreat from realities that threaten your delusions.
In addition, am I your child, friend or slave? I did not give you permission to address me by my first name, so which of the above affronteries are you making?
I’ve been reading your dissertation. It reinforces my opinions about you. When I finish with it, I will be more explicit.
Finally, why do you think I care a whit how you reply to me? I doubt, however, that your comment about “a completely civil post” was really directed to me. I can only assume that you are aware of your obscentiy-laden and feces-obsessed previous comments, and wish to change you image on these blogs. What a pathetic creep you are!
Thank you Mr. Kincaid for your excellent article and thank you Chris of the link to the open letter. The truth does indeed not only set us free, but will keep us free.
Wake up White America!
Over the many years us white americans were force fed everything from affirmative action to so called hate crime legislation. This, all part of an attempt to weaken and vulnerably leave open for defeat, what other cultures view as the great satan! Talk about hatred! While it is alright for others to advance their cultures’ if white america were to do the same you would be viewd as either racist and/or separtist.If I want an all white country club, that would be exclusionairy and therefore not allowed by law. Yet, there are all black organizations. If I wore a shirt stating support white education that would be criminal. Yet ” support black education is fine. The traditional american holiday calendar has even under gone rediculious changes. For example, Columbus day is now discovery day! Washington and Lincoln’s birthday is presidents’ day. But why then isn’t MLK’s birthday simply called civil rights day? And while on the subject of civil rights…civil rights for who??? I notice that when descenters of the white race oppose Obama for what he stands for “and whatever he stands for”,you’re justly labeled a racist. I thought a president was “of” the people, “for” the people and “by” the people. While I’ve taken a back seat,on this miserable mockery of the european culture and heritage, I can assure you that it wasn’t by choice.Think about this for a moment. If I decide not to allow my children to trick or treat in a black gang infested area, would that not implicate me as a seperatist.If I refuse to eat at a resturant where black people are food handlers, should I not be suspecious as to whether or not my food was tampered with. Didn’t Jesse Jackson amit he often spit on white peoples’food.If I don’t like the look of a black person walking towards me, do I not have the right to cross the street for fear of my safety.These acts are consided racist! I call it survival. My white upbringing taught me the golden rule. I still believe in that. But in the weeks to follow and up until Obama looses the election, the media will cite that “white voters didn’t pull the lever for Obama” This will be considered inflammatory without a doubt! I can only conclude that we’re heading for another civil war! But this isn’t another brother against brother like in the 1860’s civil war, there is clearly an enemy here and white america is the target!
Well written and very well thought out Mr. Hansen. Certainily the one good thing to come out of all this is the left’s war on America.” Madam I’m happy to tell you that we have a republic, if you can keep it!” Benjamin Franklin
Andrew-
do you wear your sheet when you type? And speaking of sheets, don’t you LOVE it when they’re still warm from the dryer?
Dear Mr. Andrew,
Don’t you really mean “Deutschland Erwache!”? Have you gotten to know that wonderful fellow, Fred Miles? The two of you seem to have a lot in common. Why don’t you get together and practise singing: “Heute im Deutschland, im Morgen der ganze Welt!” (OK, you could substitute “Amerika.” That more or less goes with the tune.) Speaking strictly for myself, I think you two would make a great duo.
To the rest of you: are you beginning to see what type of nightcrawlers the AIM site attracts? Or do you believe these are agents provocateurs insert by the liberals?
Brian R
>>To the rest of you: are you beginning to see what type of nightcrawlers the AIM site attracts?
We began to see that after about your third abusive, insulting post.
Isn’t this interesting. On all the Major Media, there is NOW a concerted effort coming from gang Obama to label everything against them as racist - and all the gang Obama talking points are about racism - and poof - the same magically shows up on the AIM site.
First we have new poster Andrew using the same format to present his arguments as Sullivan, and then immediately thereafter come dave and Sullivan bashing Andrew as a Ku Klux Klan white sheet wearing racist. Out of the clear blue sky comes a poster, a new poster, that introduces comments that have nothing to do with the thread’s subject, and has nothing to do with anything said in the 40 odd posts before that?
Coincidence or a Planned Attack to discredit posters on the AIM site?
Me thinks the current national talking points of gang Obama has been passed to his nasty minions, and like the good little useful idiots that they are - poof - the same commences on this site? Me thinks we are being conned?
But lets not just ignor what Andrew had to say. After all there is not one word in his post that directly attacks minorities with hateful slurs. And he does mention a subject that many white Americans have had to deal with - Affirmative Action - and the unfairness of this. It is a legitimate concern and should be part of the national discussion on race that is still unsettled in current politics. And after all, gang Obama seems to think that if they just drop the RACE CARD repeatedly between now and November they will win because of so-called “white guilt.”
Frankly, I think that that argument will blow up in their face, as Americans in general, and especially white Americans, are tired of hearing race race and race. I think Obama loses in November if all his gang can do is beat on white Americans ala race issues. They seem to forget that they can not win if they get every minority vote and every American with white guilt. They need the votes to win that they are slapping in the face daily by playing their race card.
One thing I can predict though, when gang Obama goes down to defeat in November, we will really hear racism yelled - and it is the racists and their race card that they play that will be the very reason that they lose.
“First we have new poster Andrew using the same format to present his arguments as Sullivan”
Not even close. Not even “apples and oranges.” More like “apples and burning crosses”...
Dear Master Hansen,
I did NOT accuse Mr. Andrew of being a Klansman. How dare you claim I insulted that fine organization by suggesting Mr. Andrew was a member! I implied he was a Nazi. The Nazi Party had lower admission standards than the Klan. So I suspect, unable to join the KKK, he turned to the NSDAP as next-best. And I was just trying to be nice by suggesting Mr. Andrew find a new friend, Fred Miles.
SERIOUSLY: I remind you that you have still not addressed my questions.
But you have answered your own question of yesterday, demanding that anyone who accuses AIM of containing racist blogs present proof. If you don’t realize that Mr. Andrew is such, then you don’t know what “racist” means. More damning, you actually defend Mr. Andrew’s reasoning. Now, of course, what he wrote and you wrote are protected by the First Amendment. But as for your morality - a totally different matter, given separation of church & state - apparently you have none.
I imagine you were subjected to all sorts of indignities, insults and worse by African-Americans when you were in USN. As you know better than I, your period of service coincided with what were euphemistically called “incidents,” especially aboard the larger warships. Carriers were the sites of the worst examples, what can only be called race riots and attempted mutinies. I imagine you witnessed at least one and probably more. I’m pretty certain you also watched or were involved in racial encounters on shore leave. I don’t defend such criminality by anyone. But I do strongly suspect that such events initiated or reinforced your racism. Why don’t you describe to us what you saw and experienced?
Finally, I am increasingly convinced you have serious memory problems. In total sincerity, I urge you to consult a neurologist.
Sullivan you criminal liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did not accuse you of saying Andrew was a klansman - but your other manifestation dave did use the word - sheets - and even an idiot like you knows that when racists such as you use the word sheets they mean klansman.
And don’t you ever you malignant bastard, ever ever ever call me a racist - I mentioned that affirmative action has been a problem in America, and it has - and that is all that I said on the subject - you race baiting criminal. Typical of you despicable liberal felons to call every one that says anything about race as being a racist.
You started this racism on this site, and YOU KNOW IT you worthless despicable man. I pointed out your adding racism to the mix and then you turn around and dump the race card AGAIN.
You and worthless human garbage like you ARE the reason Obama can NEVER be President. Americans are tired of race baiting - and scum like you are the baiters. Go kiss the ass of your buddies Jackson, Sharpton, and that Muslim racist - you low life.
I am so fu**ing tired of you on this site, go back to the haters at Daily KOS and get the F**K off this site - slimeball.
Well Jack, you’ve succeeded in driving me from this site. Buh! Bye!
I’ll probably stop by to lurk occasionally, but until this site posts an Acceptable Use Policy and enforces it, it’ll just be another amusement for me… of no value for reasonable discussions.
Guess I should have took the hint a couple of months ago when I was pummeled for my views on rational immigration policy.
John Galt, that man called me racist and those ARE fighting words, so either you can stand against such criminal behavior by Sullivan, or great get the hell out of here - nobody calls me a racist and does not hear in return the most nastiest I shove back into the scumbags face. And don’t you dare blame me for you leaving - I have had it, and Sullivan used the words - so you are a typical liberal now too, huh. When they call someone a racist, they should expect the rath of GOD down their slimeball throats…...../
Actually, you resemble these folks Jack:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/
Irrationality personified.
You are right John Galt. In fighting them on this site, I have become as bad as them - and I hate their very guts. I don’t need this ####, I have had far to many heart attacks, and that man in calling me a racist, sent me over the top. I hope he rots in hell - and he will.
Anyway, sorry I AM RESPONSIBLE for you leaving this site - but you are better in leaving, as nothing can be accomplished here, as we have not been able to have a reasonable exchange of opinions since he and his Obama minions came here.
I will be unsubscribing after sending this message - he wins, and Obama wins in his haters getting on Conservative sites. They spread nothing but hate, and it has made me hate, and that is unacceptable.
I would suggest that all those posting here except for Sullivan and his liberal haters leave this site. If we all leave, they may win, but Don Irvine of AIM will realize that he should have taken care of this problem a couple weeks ago, and long before it ever went this far. If they lose enough of us, maybe they will think twice about allowing scumbags like Sullivan to take over their sites.
Sorry, Julie O, I have enjoyed our exchanges, but it is better I leave, and would suggest the same for your betterment. Sullivan can report to Obama that he ruined a once good site for Conservatives to converse, and he can go on to another site and destroy that also.
Brian R. Sullivan
August 17 at 8:21 pm | #52
“Yet you have the ignorant audacity to state that I lack honor, that I am guilty of malicious pretense, that I know Mr. Benitez is right in expounding my ideas. Even if such were the case, how could you possibly know what is in my heart? All your base words really show is your ignorance of political thought and history. Worse, you make these insults hiding under a pseudonym. If you were to identify yourself and provide your address, I would travel to where you live and dare you to say such things to my face.”
Not that I ever feared for my life, or even any physical harm, but clearly the above extract from a Sullivan post shows he had become a bit unhinged his own self.
Perhaps now, ya’ll can return to the subject at hand: defending America from the enemy within (Obama and those who pull his strings). It is plain that Obama is a communist in ideology. It matters not where his beliefs on governance originated since he was bound to it by environment. And to further solidify his would-be policies in communist ideology, he remains beholden to by present associations and financial support. An Obama administration would certainly flip this country’s founding principles on their ears.
“It is plain that Obama is a communist in ideology. “
to quote tom lehrer: “The outpatients are out in force tonight.”
Dear Master Hansen,
I find myself more and more worried about you. Note what you wrote in your Aug. 29 at 3:25 pm #43 comment: “First we have new poster Andrew using the same format to present his arguments as Sullivan, and then immediately thereafter come dave and Sullivan bashing Andrew as a Ku Klux Klan white sheet wearing racist.”
How do you reconcile that statement with your statement of less than four hours later? Namely:
“Sullivan you criminal liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I did not accuse you of saying Andrew was a klansman…”
Then you go on to use the following phrases in my regard: “you malignant bastard… You and worthless human garbage like you…Go kiss the ass of your buddies… I am so fu**ing tired of you…slimeball.” I imagine that in 24 or 48 hours, you will deny using any such language.
You also deny being a racist? But you ARE a racist. Please look up the definition of that word.
Finally, I have a hard time understanding why you think you can stop me from calling ‘em as I see ‘em. Surely by now you should realize with whom you are dealing - rather ineffectually, I might add.
Dear Mr. Woods
I’ll reply in just a few words. Is your passport in order? Are you making plans to flee this country? If what you profess is what you really believe, you should be doing such things. Senator Barack Hussein Obama will be inaugurated as president in January - barring the tragedy I have recently been concerned about.
But I strongly suspect you will still be living in the USA then. Your punishment will follow under an Obama presidency. It won’t be what you irrationally fear. Rather it will to have reality shoved in your face by watching what kind of man and president our new chief executive actually is.
And a final note: many of the founding principles of this country have long since been flipped on their ears - deo gratias: 1) We became a democracy in the 1820s; 2) We annexed a population living in the Louisiana Purchase with no consideration of their will; 3) As a result of the Civil War, the power of the federal government was vastly expanded - permanently - at the expense of state power; 4) We abolished the Constitutionally-protected right to own slaves in the 1860s; 5) We granted former slaves full citizenship (of course soon to lose any protection) in the 1870s; 6) Starting with the creation of the Interstate Commerce Commission and continuing through both Democratic and Republican administrations, we ended the free market economic system.
I’ve only gone up to the 1921. I think you and I would agree that even more “founding principles” have been abandoned over the past 87 years. That, by the way is why we have the oldest functioning constitution in the world. It’s flexible, the American people are more practical then ideological - hence willingness to adopt change, and our system generally works. So, I think, it will continue.
Hansen-
“I would suggest that all those posting here except for Sullivan and his liberal haters leave this site.”
I’ve seen nothing in Brian’s posts that would suggest he hates liberals.
I mentioned in a much earlier post that Jack appeared to be, in JP Donleavy’s phrase, “trembling his lid prior to flipping it.” I wish him luck, and hope he seeks help as he sees fit.
To All:
I don’t know how to properly commemorate our recently-departed brother, Master Hansen. He variously accused me of being a Commie and a Nazi. But I would like all of us to sing him a farewell song. I think it would be pointless to post the Horst Wessel Lied in German on this site. Nor do I want to translate that paean to hate, racism and murder into English.
However, the Commieanthem is readily available in English translation. So, all together now, to mark the onward journey of the estimable Jack, let us joint together and sing:
[Kincaid-like headline:
COMMUNIST ANTHEM APPEARS ON AIM SITE! AIM IS REVEALED TO BE A LEFT-WING HOAX!]
Arise, you prisoners of starvation!
Arise, you wretched of the earth!
For justice thunders condemnation:
A better world’s in birth!
No more tradition’s chains shall bind us,
Arise you slaves, no more in thrall!
The earth shall rise on new foundations:
We have been nought, we shall be all!
‘Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The international soviet
Shall be the human race
‘Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The international working class
Shall be the human race
Second stanza
No more deluded by reaction,
On tyrants only we’ll make war!
The soldiers too will take strike action,
They’ll break ranks and fight no more!
And if those cannibals keep trying,
To sacrifice us to their pride,
They soon shall hear the bullets flying,
We’ll shoot the generals on our own side.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
Let no one build walls to divide us,
Walls of hatred nor walls of stone.
Come greet the dawn and stand beside us,
We’ll live together or we’ll die alone.
In our world poisoned by exploitation,
Those who have taken, now they must give!
And end the vanity of nations,
We’ve but one Earth on which to live.
So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Internationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The international ideal,
Unites the human race.
We want no condescending saviors
To rule us from their judgment hall,
We workers ask not for their favors
Let us consult for all:
To make the thief disgorge his booty
To free the spirit from its cell,
We must ourselves decide our duty,
We must decide, and do it well.
‘Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The international soviet
Shall be the human race
‘Tis the final conflict,
Let each stand in his place.
The international working class
Shall be the human race
Third stanza
No saviour from on high delivers,
No faith have we in prince or peer.
Our own right hand the chains must shiver,
Chains of hatred, greed and fear.
E’er the thieves will out with their booty,
And to all give a happier lot.
Each at his forge must do their duty,
And we’ll strike the iron while it’s hot.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
So comrades, come rally,
And the last fight let us face.
The Internationale,
Unites the human race.
And so begins the final drama,
In the streets and in the fields.
We stand unbowed before their armour,
We defy their guns and shields!
When we fight, provoked by their aggression,
Let us be inspired by life and love.
For though they offer us concessions,
Change will not come from above!
So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Internationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The international ideal,
Unites the human race.
Disclaimer: I do hope that those of you who have read so far realize that I’m NOT serious and am only making an attempt at humor.
Brian
>>Disclaimer: I do hope that those of you who have read so far realize that I’m NOT serious and am only making an attempt at humor.
A failed attempt. You have too much time on your hands. Get a hobby. I still recommend masturbation as that should keep your hands full.
Then again, maybe not. Tweezers might be required.
Rational posters will use the scroll bar to skip over your numerous and interminable posts. You have nothing to say and say it badly, being the hateful old fart that you are.
Good luck with that inferiority complex of yours.
“Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence.” -Albert Einstein
Jack Hanson
>>that man called me racist and those ARE fighting words, so either you can stand against such criminal behavior by Sullivan, or great get the hell out of here - nobody calls me a racist and does not hear in return the most nastiest I shove back into the scumbags face.
No disrespect intended, but when you take this attitude, Sullivan has successfully completed his goofball “mission.”
You apparently take Sullivan seriously, which is like arguing with a small child: the guy is pitiful…but you allowed him to get under your skin.
It’s patently obvious that Sullivan (or “God,” as he prefers to think of himself) is a senile fool. You’re going to let this guy WIN?
I think you would agree that he can’t be taken seriously, so don’t have a one-on-one “debate” with him (just as you wouldn’t with a small child).
Use ridicule, as he’s clearly ridiculous… and sensitive to a fault with any criticism leveled at him.
Plus, by using this tactic, you make “new arrivals” aware that, having read a post or two of his (I skip anything that goes on for more than a paragraph or two, whether directed at me or not), Brian R Sullivan is an utter waste of time. At some point in the past, he may have been worthy of being taken seriously, but this time has come and gone, trailing in his wake.
Give people credit for being able to see through this guy as so many regular contributors have. If you take him seriously, as opposed to ridiculing him, you give him credibility to which he is not entitled.
Pick your battles. Save your good stuff for responses to other rational posters, while accepting the reality that Sullivan is a whack job and either ignore or ridicule him.
Be cool. As they say, Never argue with a fool because observers may not be able to tell which one is the fool!
Sullivan is a pompous ass. Treat him like the blowhard, long-winded fool that he is.
Or, you can take him seriously…and give him a smile of satisfaction.
Wipe that smile off his face. Rational debate is impossible with him, and others will see this.
You might use this same tactic with dave, who is also a legend in his own mind.
Neither Sullivan nor dave are here for rational debate, but to disrupt any such rational debate.
Don’t debate with small children! You have raised several very good points during your visits here. Don’t be distracted by those who have no goal but to distract.
They take great delight, you can be sure, when they get you to lose it in your posts.
I suspect that this is not your goal in posting here.
God bless. But don’t wish for the distracters to rot in hell. This is God’s call, not yours or mine. Don’t you suspect that God can do a much better job at this than you or I?
;>)
Dear Ms. voxounreason,
I do agree with one thing you wrote: “I skip anything that goes on for more than a paragraph or two.” That pretty well sums up how your mind works. (“We be cool // We play pool”) Everyone to whom I have related your misquotation have found it hilarious. And more and more of them are reading your blogs, hoping for your next howler.
And PLEASE, do try to get Master Hansen to come back. Being a sadist, I really enjoy knocking him down over and over. But I think he had begun to enjoy it. You know, like what Sam Spade says in the Maltese Falcon: “When I slap you around, you’ll take it and like it.” (Once again, to clarify matters for the intellectually challenged, I’m NOT being serious.)
Thank you for your research into this. I am 58 yrs old and remember the Soviet news agency Pravda, a hand of the KGB, filtering any and all info the public had access to. It seems that history is repeating itself in the U.S.A. but for people like you. Thank you and be careful
Dear Brian Sullivan:
I must say your performance has been fascinating. It has been somewhat akin to watching a boy pluck the legs off an ant with tweezers so it won’t be able to run when you start frying it with a magnifying glass.
I’m sure it will cost you no more than a couple more millennia in Purgatory. God bless.
“You might use this same tactic with dave, who is also a legend in his own mind.”
my, how utterly clever.
“Neither Sullivan nor dave are here for rational debate, but to disrupt any such rational debate.”
Since we’re not in lockstep with the rest of the right wing automotons, we’re here ‘to disrupt any rational debate.’ For the most part there has been very little to disrupt.
your reference to Brian as “a senile fool” is simply pathetic. you’ve been bitchslapped, owned and aced so many times, it’s like the famous swordfight scene in “Holy Grail”.
Dear Jack Hansen:
It filled me with great pity to watch your exoskeleton swell as your juices came to a boil under Mr. Sullivan’s magnifying glass. I could almost smell that ... burning hair? smell of the superheating underway in your post #46.
I clearly heard the “POP” when your exoskeleton finally exploded in your post #49. And that pathetic little puff of smoke of your post #51. Shocking ant tragic!
I sincerely pray your heart did not take too big a stress from the experience. If you would e-mail your address to me ( (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address) ) I will have one of the parish priests come over to minister to you.
God bless you my son.
It’s nice for Cliff Kincaid that his loyal followers have little criticism of his columns, but such behavior suggests a lack of critical reasoning on their part. For example, this misleading column starts off by saying Meacham’s characterization of Davis’s “McCarthyite denunciation by the House Un-American Activities Committee” suggests “Davis was the target of false allegations that he was a communist,” and is “about as dishonest as it gets.”
“In the first place, as Meacham surely knows, Joseph McCarthy was a senator, not a congressman. The House committee had nothing to do with McCarthy. Second, Davis was identified as a member of the Communist Party USA (CPUSA), controlled and subsidized by the Soviet Communist Party and the KGB. As late as 1956, when he was called before the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, Davis was still refusing to deny that he was a communist.”
In the first place, as Kincaid should surely know, “McCarthyite” does not necessarily mean any direct connection to Senator Joseph McCarthy. According to dictionary.com, “McCarthyite” means: “1. the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, esp. of pro-Communist activity, in many instances unsupported by proof or based on slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence. 2. the practice of making unfair allegations or using unfair investigative techniques, esp. in order to restrict dissent or political criticism.” “McCarthyite denunciations” do not require false allegations that someone is a communist. You can make McCarthyite denunciations OF a communist! McCarthyite denunciations still occur in the 21st century, long after the death of Senator McCarthy.
Cliff Kincaid and colleagues have made McCarthyite denunciations of my father, Frank Marshall Davis. Their actions PRECISELY meet the definition of “McCarthyite”! Although he became a nominal member during WWII, their misrepresentation that he was a “lifelong member of the Communist Party USA” is a McCarthyite denunciation. Their misrepresentation that Davis was a “Stalinist” and that “his values, passed on to Obama, were those of a communist agent who pledged allegiance to Stalin,” is another McCarthyite denunciation. AIM’s “proof” is based not only on “slight, doubtful, or irrelevant evidence,” it is also based on false evidence, as outlined in my blog. THAT’S about as dishonest as it gets!
The mainstream media portray a much more accurate picture of Frank Marshall Davis than the McCarthyite denunciations on this website. The AIM disinformation campaign has failed. Once again, I challenge AIM supporters to refute the specific misrepresentation outlined in my blog. I also expand the challenge to include providing concrete empirical evidence, rather than specious speculation, that he was disloyal to the United States OR that he was a “communist agent.” Truth will out!
Is it just me, or are posts to this forum being deleted (censored, perhaps?) i see them in the email reply notification, but they don’t appear here.
Not sure who posted this, but:
Obama’s Communist attitudes continue to surface everyday. He is the fool if he thinks the American people will bend to kiss his ***. Anyway, it doesn’t look as though things are destined to last long. Already 5 uncovered plots against his well being within one month. Coupled with his total unwillingness to go to any southern state speaks volumes about his chicken **** attitude. Will he lock himself up in the White House for 4 years? Well he does think he is JFK reborn!!!
—-
My only reply to this is that perhaps if people such as those on this forum would gain a sense of reality and stop spreading unfounded rumours about Obama, there wouldn’t be threats to his, as you say, “well-being.” Hate the man all you want, but for the sake of your own integrity, give the outlandish accusations a rest. Every time i hear a rumour that “Obama is the Antichrist,” or that he’s a Muslim extremist plotting to take down the country from within, i can’t help but think to myself, “Are these the lows the right sinks to when they can’t attack somebody with any sort of legitimacy?”
Now, i’m a staunch advocate of free speech…the sort of “i may hate what you have to say, but i would die for your right to say it” type. That being said, words have consequences, as do rumours, and we ought to do better with holding ourselves responsible for what we say. When you convince somebody of some falsehood, and they act on this information (i.e. you convince people that Obama is the Antichrist, so some religious fanatic comes along and, believing that, puts a bullet in the man’s head), then you are responsible for the consequences, at least in part.
Now, i can’t stand George Bush. Despise the man. i think he’s done more damage to this country than any other president in history, and—to be perfectly frank—i’m surprised someone hasn’t made an attempt on his life. However, despite my disdain, i would never, ever wish the man harm. Don’t get me wrong, i think he would do well to endure some serious anguish over the consequences of his presidency, but i don’t wish death upon anybody. i sincerely hope that i’m misunderstanding your tone when i say it seems as if you wouldn’t think an attempt on Obama’s life to be so very tragic. Indeed, i hope i’m mistaken…
To those persuaded by AIM-Logic on the supposed Davis influence on Obama:
More so in the 1945-85 period but still today, the idea of guilt by association (or guilt by claimed association) retains its power, however specious. If the Western Allies had excluded from political office, everyone in W. Germany who had had any association with the NSDAP or Hitler, the Bundesrepublik could not have functioned. Using AIM-Logic, Benedict XVI, should not be pope. He not only served in the Wehrmacht, he did so in the last weeks of the Third Reich. That proves he was a fanatical diehard Nazi, right? And, he deserted. So he is obviously a coward, traitor and oath-breaker, as well. (Remember, ALL members of the Wehrmacht had to take an oath promising unbending allegiance to the Fuehrer, even at the cost of death.)
I could make the same arguments in regard to people who supported Stalin, Mussolini, Mao, Saddam Hussein, Castro, Pol Pot, the Apartheid regime in S. Africa and on and on. People can make very bad choices based on misinformation, immaturity, conformism, fear, delusions, evil, wishful thinking and other universal human frailities.
The important questions, I think, are: has a person learned from his/her mistakes? Have they gained in wisdom over the passing years? Are they sorry for what errors they committed? Do they associate with people with dubious or even shocking pasts because they believe such a person has matured or become sorry for past mistakes? I could go on. But I think I have made my point.
My grandfather and two uncles were long-time members of the IRA. They raised me to accept their beliefs and support their cause. They entertained me with stories about what they did and saw during “the Troubles.” For years I wanted to be like them. As I grew older, I performed certain services for “the Boyos.” So, when I got back from Vietnam, I was expected to go join the Provos in Ulster and add my recently-gained expertise to the cause. But I didn’t and tried - as gently as I could - to explain I had no intention of becoming a terrorist to force Catholic Nationalist minority rule on a Protstant Unionist majority. They didn’t understand and even grew furious. But I had no other choice under good conscience.
I did some very bad things in Mozambique some thirty years ago. I saw myself as fighting Communism in the form of Frelimo by taking part in the murderous Renamo insurgency. I bitterly regret what I did. I continue to beg God for forgiveness. My point is, should I be perpetually tied to my long-since-rejected beliefs and behavior in terms of battling Soviet influence?
Many, many well-meaing if naive people supported Stalin in the 1930s and 1940s as the only world leader willing to stnd up to Mussolini and Hitler. They certainly made a very foolish mistake and most eventually repented of it. Should they continue to be despised and condmened today? In reverse, what about Spaniards who fought for Franco to oppose Communism in Spain? Are they to be eternally blamed for the atrocities Franco and his regime committed from 1939 to 1975?
People, being people, make terrible mistakes. People, being people, are also capable of abandoning error and seeking foregiveness.
How did we slowly and painfully put our country back together after the Civil War? Did the US government hang Davis and Lee. Did it erect great prison camps for the Confederate soldiers? That may seem a far away time and irrelevant to today’s concerns. But remember, the Unionists considered the Confederates to be traitors and utterly wicked defenders of keeping human beings in slavery.
The past does have its influences, echoing forward in time until the end of time. But such echoes are constantly altered and reformed by the events which come afterward.
How about an election about TODAY’S problems, not those of 20,30, 40, 50 years ago?
Very well put, Sullivan. Really, it’s an issue worth some examination, when do we bury the hatchet and stop holding age-old grudges. In case nobody else’s noticed the correlation, there are presently several bloody struggles centuries old, which it appears will continue in perpetuity until somebody bites the bullet (no pun intended) and is actually willing to forgive tired old grievances.
There are those who have earnestly suggested that the US government pay reparations to families whose ancestors were slaves. Is anybody with me in thinking that this is a bit like tossing somebody a coin and saying, “Sorry about the mess,”—basically, spending a lot of money on something totally ineffectual, even insulting.
Likewise, i don’t know any black people whose great-great-grandfathers were slaves who, by default, hold Southerners in contempt. Nobody in my family ever owned slaves, but even if they did, there’s not a lot i can do about that.
In another sense, as i alluded to above, the Israelis and Palestinians have been fighting one another since 1948. At this point, it’s fruitless for the Palestinians to believe they can kick the Israelis back out again, so firmly have they established a presence in Palestine. However, despite the rhetoric coming from the Israeli government about wanting peace, actions speak louder than words, and certainly have more weight, the words being hollow as they are. Intimidating the Palestinians, and essentially doing all they can to reinforce the Palestinians’ second-class status does nothing to promote peace. Only when the two sides are able to relent, and accept that somehow, fate brought them to share the same piece of soil, will anything positive happen.
This is true of the stark division of America that has happened in recent years. The long term result of shock-jock talking heads and character assassins, letting their desperation to win bring them to low blows, is that the spin has left us dizzy, unable to evaluate things rationally…
Brian
I would respond that you probably have better things to do with your time…but you don’t, do you?
You pathetic, hateful old fool.
dave: your reference to Brian as “a senile fool” is simply pathetic. you’ve been bitchslapped, owned and aced so many times, it’s like the famous swordfight scene in “Holy Grail”.
Uh, you didn’t provide any PROOF! If you can’t provide any PROOF, then nothing you say is valid.
How’s that shoe feel on the other foot?
BTW, exactly how do you slap YOUR bitch? Sounds rather sexist to me. Then again, I’ve been married to a lovely, attractive woman (not a bitch) for 30+ years, so I’m not too familiar with bitchslapping. Maybe you can help me out with this, since you seem to be familiar with the practice.
;>)
Dear Mr. voxounreason,
At last, you have revealed your gender! And I thought you were a woman! What a mistake I made.
As to your questions: 1) What better use of time is there than to refute lies? Is making money better? Or writing books? Or drinking and smoking? Or watching TV? Or pursuing a life of hedonism? I AM open to sensible suggestions about what else would be superior to trying to educate people to learn how to think clearly. Do tell. 2) You are welcome to extend your sympathy (“pathetic”). You are free to make crude jokes - or attempts at jokes - about my penis, about flatulence and about masturbation. (See your nos. 23 and 58 above). [BY THE WAY, DOES YOUR WIFE AND DO YOUR CHILDREN KNOW ABOUT YOUR BLOGS?] You are free to write virtually anything you wish. But have you any arguments? And why do you keep trying to insult me? Do you actually think I have the small modicum of respect for you necessary to take anything you write seriously? 3) I doubt you are very much younger than I am. I suspect that I’m in far better shape and am very likely to live far longer than you will. (How old are you? Are either of your parents still alive? If not, at what age or ages did they die? Their ages at death are a good indicator of your life span.) I suspect from your frequent references to age, you are deteriorating physically and mentally, and fear the approach of death. It is a good idea to prepare for your journey to that distant bourne from which no man has yet returned and worry less or not at all about the silly matters which obsess you. 4) As for being a fool, that may or not be true. But how would you know? Your ignorance, stupidity and general lack of reason disqualify you from distinguishing between wisdom and folly.(In that regard, your choice of pseudonym is rather humorous. Those to whom I have suggested reading your comments agree. Do you know you have a growing fan club? However, I don’t think you would like to know why your comments have become the objects of widening interest. “We be cool.//We play pool.” has become more and frequently quoted these past few weeks in certain circles. By the way, are you willing to give a lecture or paper on your reading of poetry? I am sure that I can arrange a venue with a large audience.) 5) Am I hateful? That may be true for some or many people in my regard. But what harm does that do me? As for your hatred, it harms only you. 6) Finally, if the notion of turnabout being fair play appeals to you, what have YOU done with your life? And what are you doing with it now? I think that at least some of us would like to know.
By the way, have you gotten a copy of “The Case for Poetry” yet?
August 27 at 1:59 pm | #1 | Link
Thank you for all your work and effort Mr. Kincaid! I’m forwarding this to friends and family.