McCain’s Reverend Wright?
AIM Column | By Bethany Stotts | August 1, 2008
Many news outlets ran Sen. Lieberman’s comments as those of a close McCain confidant, even though the speech was advertised as independent from the McCain campaign.
Pastor John Hagee, the head of Christians United for Israel (CUFI) gave a fiery critique of the media at CUFI’s third annual Summit last week. “For several months we’ve found ourselves in the middle of a vicious national media firestorm,” said Hagee, who has been condemned for calling Hurricane Katrina God’s wrath on homosexuals and for calling the Catholic Church “the great whore.”
Hagee criticized the media for twisting his words and for not being willing to accept the “Bible view.” “The problem is that in the marketplace of ideas, a.k.a the media, they do not understand the Bible view. Many of the attacks on us stem from this unfortunate fact,” he said. “For the moment I am happy to report to you that the storm has passed, but I do emphasize ‘for the moment.’”
Instead of focusing on Hagee’s rebuttal of the mainstream media, many news outlets this year focused instead on a speech made by Senator Joseph Lieberman, a long-time colleague of John McCain's. The question seems to be, does the Senator’s attendance imply that McCain still supports Pastor Hagee’s work?
Washington Times correspondent Stephen Dinan suggests that it does. “But is Lieberman, who has repeatedly served as a top surrogate for McCain’s campaign, speaking tomorrow for McCain, who unceremoniously dumped Hagee?,” writes Dinan. “The McCain campaign didn’t immediately return a call on Lieberman’s role, but Lieberman’s Senate office says this is not a surrogate event...Still, when some-time surrogates meet former surrogates in the heat of campaign season, it’s bound to raise questions.”
J Street, a left-leaning non-profit organization, amassed 42,000 signatures calling for Sen. Lieberman to boycott the CUFI Summit.
“As you may know, there has been an organized, pretty aggressive campaign to convince me to cancel my speech this evening following the political controversy that broke out over Pastor Hagee and some of the comments that were attributed to him,” said Sen. Lieberman at the Night to Honor Israel banquet. But, he said, “the bond that I feel with Pastor Hagee and each and every one of you is much stronger than that and so I am proud to stand with you tonight.”
Many news outlets ran Sen. Lieberman’s comments as those of a close McCain confidant, even though the speech was advertised as independent from the McCain campaign. “One of John McCain's most prominent supporters on Tuesday praised an evangelical leader whom the Republican presidential candidate repudiated after a string of controversial remarks were made public,” wrote Andy Sullivan for Reuters.
“One of Sen. John McCain's most visible surrogates is scheduled to speak before an organization founded and led by Pastor John Hagee Tuesday night in Washington, despite McCain’s rejection of the endorsement by the controversial pastor,” wrote ABC News’ Rick Klein. Klein’s report focuses on McCain’s ties to the pro-CUFI Lieberman.
“Lieberman, an Orthodox Jew, is one of McCain’s highest-profile supporters, appearing regularly alongside McCain at events and popping up frequently as a campaign surrogate,” wrote Klein. But in this case, the McCain office said Lieberman was acting independently. “[Lieberman] is chairman of Citizens for McCain, a group for independents and Democrats who support McCain. He is widely discussed as a possible Republican National Convention speaker, and even as a potential running mate for the Arizona Republican,” added Klein.
Many columns deliberately connect Pastor Hagee to the McCain campaign, and some even suggest that Pastor Hagee is McCain’s personal Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
As the Associated Press writer Andrew Miga reported,
“Lieberman's appearance has sparked criticism, particularly among some liberal advocacy groups who have urged him to sever his ties to the Texas evangelical preacher. Lieberman supports presumed Republican presidential nominee John McCain, who rejected Hagee's endorsement in May citing the pastor's claim that God sent Adolf Hitler to help Jews reach the promised land.”
The media’s current obsession with Lieberman’s attendance at CUFI represents an ongoing double standard. While news outlets continue to associate two figures who have distanced themselves from each other, just a few months ago the media were supporting the contention of Obama supporters' that coverage of Obama's relationship with Reverend Wright is simply a “distraction.”
In March, Obama dismissed the controversy as too divisive. “[Barack Obama] said the clips spoke "to some of the racial divisions that we have in this country and tapped into those divisions. I hope people don't get distracted by this because as I said in my speech last week on Tuesday; we can't afford to be distracted," reported MSNBC.
A Chicago NBC station also quoted Obama as saying, "Part of what I hope to do in this campaign and as president is to get us beyond these divisions that distract us from our common challenges and our common opportunities and move the country forward.”
In April, USA Today reporter Kathy Kiely wrote that “Tim Roemer, a former Indiana congressman campaigning for Obama in his home state—which, along with North Carolina, will hold the next round of primaries May 6—called Wright's comments ‘an unnecessary distraction.’” Likewise, “Political analysts said Wright's appearance was a distraction,” writes Kiely, quoting Democratic strategist Donna Brazile. Kiely also quotes a Republican strategist who believes that the issue had been overplayed.
By this rubric, doesn’t the media’s hyper-focus on the relationship between Pastor John Hagee, Joe Lieberman, and John McCain then count as a “distraction?”
“I have said I do not believe Sen. Obama shares Rev. Wright's extreme views. But let me also be clear, Rev. Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual adviser, and I did not attend his church for 20 years. I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today," McCain told CNN in May.
McCain also does not consider Pastor Hagee his “mentor,” nor did the evangelical pastor marry McCain and his wife. Yet some reporters insist on drawing parallels between Pastor Hagee and Reverend Wright.
“Outside the convention hall, the address received little notice until two months ago when—in the maelstrom that is presidential politics—Hagee became Republican John McCain's Rev. Jeremiah Wright,” writes Kevin Urban for the Connecticut Post on July 20.
A disgruntled Washington Post reporter, Dana Milbank, who was refused entry to the summit on Monday, July 21, made the same transparent comparison. (The press was told that the summit would only be open to them for the Tuesday banquet, and then CUFI later extended that permission to attend any Tuesday afternoon session).
Although Milbank claims he was told about the press blockout “belatedly,” Kara Silverman, a press contact for CUFI, said Milbank was on CUFI’s mailing list and would have received their official notification that the Monday events were closed to reporters.
This didn’t keep Milbank from writing an angry column, however. “But while McCain has officially renounced the pair (and they him), the program for the summit suggests the distancing came with a wink and a nod,” writes Milbank. “It touts as speakers top McCain surrogate Joe Lieberman and Bauer, a prominent McCain supporter and an informal adviser to the campaign. It displayed three photos of McCain with Hagee at last year's summit.”
“This election may well come down to which candidate can better control his crazy pastors—and after yesterday's weirdness at the convention center, McCain has fallen behind by about two cubits,” he writes.
According to a recent survey by Rassmussen Reports, “the idea that reporters are trying to help Obama win in November has grown by five percentage points” up to 49 percent (versus just 14 percent who believe the same about McCain) over the previous month. Perhaps reporters think that associating McCain with Pastor Hagee will help Obama win this crucial race.
Bethany Stotts is a Staff Writer for Accuracy in Academia, and can be contacted at
55 Comments | Post a Comment
(A few Sundays ago, during my channel-surfing, I happened upon the Rev Hagee deliving the latter part of a sermon. The following is based upon this limited exposure along with a few references to Hagee in columns, such as the one above, along with several Media references to him from the time of John McCain’s repudiation. My only exposure to the Rev Wright has similarly been that afforded by the press and the media, including the infamous (in my opinion) National Press Club sermon. The following discussion is based on this limited info, and must be judged accordingly.)
I grew up in the church (Protestant), and although in my youth was subjected to many powerful sermons, few were as powerful as Hagee’s. The Rev Hagee could have been Ralph Waldo Emerson, as preaching personal responsibility was the theme of this particular sermon. He exhorted his congregation to look inwards to find the reasons for their lack of success in the various aspects of their lives, and, after this honest introspection, to apply themselves assiduously to improving their lives by hard work and constructive thinking, again, as I said, sentiments generally agreeing with Emerson’s self-reliance. There was no hint, absolutely none, of blaming others, the very antithesis of the Rev Wright’s inveighing against America and Whites, exhorting his congregation to blame others for all their troubles. Nor was it just that their approaches to life’s problems were 180 degrees apart, their styles of delivery were also diametrical opposites: The Rev Hagee’s powerful exhortations to look into oneself for the answers to personal failure were delivered in a strong but calm, reasoning voice, while the Rev Wright’s appeal to blame others for all of life’s probems were delivered in his well-publicized bombastic, and overly theatrical manner.
Nor did Hagee ever lie to his congregation, as did Wright in respect to AIDS, nor did he inveigh against his country, “God Damn America,” the “KKK of America,” or rabble-rouse in any way, while Rev Wright overtly preached hatred seemingly based on the infamous Black doctrine of “victimology.”
It is unfortunate that McCain was so unfamiliar with the Rev Hagee as to denounce him out of hand, without apparently much examination of Hagee’s ministry. He may have had no choice, as Hagee, liberally (no pun intended) quoted out of context by a hostile press, was certainly therefore an instant liability. Yet, Hagee merely expressed his support of a man who had never as far as we know attended his church, whereas Obama had his own self-proclaimed close, personal twenty-year association with the Rev Wright. No one should be surprised at partisans in the midst of a campaign suddenly twisting and distorting whatever they can to gain an advantage or to seek to lessen, in this case, the damage done by the Rev Wright connection. However, it takes a thorougly corrupt, generally dishonorable media to label the Rev Wright/Obama and Rev Hagee/McCain parallel influences.
As for the Rev Hagee, I hope that he takes to heart his own admonition that we are responsible for our own troubles and examines how even good people could misread his intentions and find his words unacceptable even though taken of context. As a public figure, it seems fair to expect the Rev Hagee to seriously consider such chances for misinterpretation and assiduously avoid them. Although the quotes used against him were taken out of context, even in context they could be offensive, especially to Jews. However, I think that while Hagee went rather far in using the Hitler reference to make a point about the unintended consequences of history, Jews understand the context and few seem to have gotten too excited about it. Again, Hagee will have to grapple with the problem of couching sometimes his Biblically oriented argumentation,and perhaps even legitimate points, in somewhat outrageous or insensitive examples or language. However, that said, I sincerely hope that the Rev Hagee will continue in his ministry far into the future, for America needs to hear what he is preaching. If fact, I suggest to anyone who has a few moments to spare, that he or she tune in to Rev Hagee some Sunday morning for a constructive, up-lifting message. That includes Senator McCain, although introspection is probably a given for a long-time POW.
(Again, I offer the caveat that my sentiments are based on limited exposure to both preachers.)
There are undoubtedly many, many men (and women) of the cloth who can offer intelligent, informative, instructional, motivational and uplifting sermons and, maybe, if he can leave politics out of it, Hagee is one of them. BUT - - neither Hagee, Wright, nor any other pastor, priest, reverend, rabbi, etc., etc. should be peddling political propaganda. They should stick to religion. IF they do insist on politicizing or politiking their parishioners, they (and their churches) should lose their tax-free status.
There have certainly been more than enough scandals of all sorts involving denominations of all kinds indicative of the fact that a lot of these people are often nothing but nickel-and-dime immoral and unethical hypocrites in their personal lives and in their “ministries”.
They can do a lot of humanistic good at the grass roots level without injecting their politics or seeking a mass media stage.
To me, both Wright and Hagee are fundamentalist extremists in their own rights amd neither should be on a national stage peddling personal politics and claiming that they have an inside track to the “politics of Jesus”!
And Lieberman? He’s just a politically flip-flopping, over-the-hill and homeless n’er-do-well looking for a place to spend the night! He’s made himself totally irrelevant.
(Amazing how he and Gore were such a perfect couple of “doin’ nothin’ and goin’ nowhere”! No wonder The Texas Ranger and El Dicque won!)
First, a point on the Bible, which cautions against those who “prayer on street corners.” While I am a Christian who has felt God’s hand at work in my life, as has my wife, it does seem as though televangelists have gone WAY beyond street corners.
Wanna get screwed? If you notice religious posters/sayings in a store that doesn’t specialize in selling such stuff, shop there. Said screwing will ensue. It took me a couple of times, but I picked up on this quickly. Jesus is our Savior, not a sales gimmick.
I must note in all honesty that I prefer Joel Osteen, who ALWAYS has something to say that we might be sitting over cups of coffee with him directly addressing me, often about some problem I could use a little help with. Okay, I may be inconsistent in my views, but if I find something that works for me, I go for it!
Joel follows FoxNews Sunday Report in my area, and I stumbled upon him as I turned my attention to something else, but heard Joel making a lot of sense, offering practical advice, drawing my attention. He’s not a fire and brimstoner, but more of a motivational speaker who backs up his words with scripture. He COULD drop some of his “I’m good looking” remarks: he’s not THAT good looking! Making fun of his family members isn’t a winner, either.
Bottom line: Sooner or later, Americans are going to realize that Obama is basically running on higher taxes and higher gas prices and his skin color, as any “race cards” played have come from Obama, NOT McCain. (Yes, *other* GOP groups have mentioned Rev Wright, including in NC where I live, but this is NOT the “race card,” but the “anti-American, conspiracy nut, racist, hater, hypocrite card.” Got anything good to say about this horse’s arse? Knock yourself out.)
Anyone who wants to pay higher taxes and higher gas prices is free to do so RIGHT NOW! But they don’t unless everybody else HAS TO. Why is that? Do they lack the strength of their convictions? Or are they simply stupid? You want it? Do it!
Obama is essential to neither paying more taxes nor paying higher gas prices. Why wait? Pay ‘em NOW! The IRS and gas station owners will take your extra money! I promise you this. Wouldn’t you take an offer of money that doesn’t involve a crime? (Of course you would! If you walked by a $5 bill lying on the sidewalk, would you walk on by without nabbing it? Show of hands from the idiots, please.)
Were I McCain, I wouldn’t want some of Hagee’s more egregious pronouncements in Obama’s campaign ads, either. Then again, I WOULD immediately drop my oppo to drilling ANWR (as there’s not one good reason not to), allowing the conservative “idiot vote” (a sub-group of conservatives who would rather shame the sacrifices our military has made to secure this *privilege* than vote; not in the Constitution, so voting is NOT a right, although it is a de facto right) to get onboard without looking like the nitwits they are.
Okay, McCain isn’t my ideal candidate, either, but, as always, the GOP is the lesser of two evils. Americans should have heard about MOST of Obama’s screwups during the dem primary, say in January of this year, as Hillary’s infamous oppo-research team seems to have slept out most of the dem primary. If Obama continues to screw up at every given opportunity, Hillary may well end up the dem candidate as more people see the new Messiah as unelectable. NEVER underestimate this snakewoman. (Screw the youth vote. They won’t… unless they can do so by text messaging, which they can’t. Voting isn’t sufficiently narcissistic.)
Note the insignificant bump (in SOME polls; down in others) Obama got from his “presidential tour” of Europe and the Middle East, because he simply hasn’t got the goods… and made several HUGE mistakes, eg, not visiting wounded troops because no cameras were allowed for political posturing, but had plenty of time for basketball. He has made himself into a racial stereotype. Shoot hoops, bro.
Obama’s priorities are way misplaced.
And this is going to cost him the election, unless McCain gets caught in a hotel room with a dead girl or a live boy as the saying goes.
Ron Paul/Ralph Nader (the “vanity run” candidates) are unelectable, while Obama is unsuitable, leaving McCain as the least of three evils.
Closing on a bright note: John Edwards despicable political career ended after he was caught sneaking out of his mistress’s hotel room after siring a “love child” with her while his wife has supported him 110%, despite facing terminal cancer. Remind anyone of Newt Gingrich? (Despite his obvious flaws, Gingrich isn’t stupid and has some good ideas. Hope McCain is bright enough to use them. He CAN be a stubborn a-hole at times, as shown by his position on ANWR.)
To those who disagree, you have this privilege, while I will not get into running gun battles with morons, so hit me with your best shot. Won’t bother me.
God bless.
To voxoreason:
I disagree with a lot of what you write - - and while I truly believe that religion is the last available vehicle for the teaching of morals and values - - I don’t think religion should be politicized. And, I’m not a Biblical literalist - - so, as far as religion goes, I can’t really relate to those who are.
But - - relating to something else you said in your post:
I’m in Florida - - in the midst of the MOST conservative, most Republican, and most religious part of a very Republican stronghold. In fact, in my immediate area, Republican voter registration outnumbers Dem registration 3 to 1!
TODAY - - McCain and Obama are BOTH in the immediate area - - and each has already made several stops and given several speeches. And a local media group has been running opinion (or a version of “exit") surveys all day - - simply asking “Are you for Obama or McCain?” - - and EVERYBODY has apparently been totally startled at the results (as of 5 pm, 8/1) - - OBAMA is running AHEAD - - by 10 points!
The theory they’re using on TV to explain the result is that the deciding issue is “offshore drilling” - - and let me tell you - - Floridians, especially on the west peninsular coast - - DO NOT WANT offshore drilling! This has been a #1 issue here since the OPEC crisis in the ‘70s. In fact, when Charlie Crist came out supporting McBush on the issue - - Crist’s populatiry numbers - - which had been in the 70+% range - - dropped a dozen points overnight!
So - - think about the very high number of electoral votes - - and think about the fact that The Texas Ranger and El Dicque “won” here in ‘00 only by a highly-disputed and miniscule 537 votes - - and didn’t do notably better in ‘04!
It’s still early and some 90+ days to the election - - but if Obama can win Florida on the basis of this one issue - - he’ll be elected for sure!
I am and always have been for drilling wherever oil or natural gas may be found - - I’m for putting giant windmills wherever sufficient wind blows - - and I’m for putting giant thermal solar arrays anyplace out in the boondocks where there’s room and where the sun shines regularly - - AND - - I was for ALL those things even BEFORE the ‘70s.
The only thing I ask for in regard to the oil and gas drilling is that the best of technology be used to prevent pollution - - whatever the cost.
I’m an Independent and not thrilled with either candidate - - but I do think The Texas Ranger and El Dicque have been the worst in history - - and McCain has chosen to become McBush. So - - under no circumstances can I vote for more of the same! ANYBODY would be better than another Bush or a Bush clone!
On the other hand, in 2000, I would have happily voted for McCain - - but the Bushleaguers slimed him right out of the race! This time around, I will never understand why he hasn’t remained true to himself! I admired him somehwat - - once!
BUT - - how about the importance of the drilling issue in Florida! Here, Republicans have voted time-and-time-again against it!
(In its entire history, Florida has only elected ONE black person to a statewide office - - and that was a Supreme Court justice in 1976! Maybe the law of averages says it’s time to do it again? Pretty interesting!)
Unfortunately I don’t find it out of the ordinary that liberals in the MSM haven’t the intellectual integrity or ability to distinguish the difference between a senator attending a church for 20 years and a senator who hasn’t attended a church but was endorsed by its pastor. Bob Beckel’s and Moveon.org’s objections seem to be that any endorsements are an endorsement by the extreme religious right.
Too many liberals seem to think that the Constitution forbids the church from speaking out on political subjects in the public square and even want to believe the Bible also forbids that. Yet even Jesus chastised the leaders of His time for their conduct and John the Baptist was killed for doing so. When Jesus threatened the economics of the leaders He too was killed. So I suppose good liberals out to be out killing Christians who oppose their agenda or at least sending them to Gulags.
Oh how the ‘Conservatives’ love the Trotsky Communist (Neo Con) line of garbage from Fox/News Corp to the Televanglists. An too stupid to follow Christs words, take your Bible into to a quiet room, close the door and read/pray.
Fred, Jesus read the Scriptures in public and expounded on them. For that they even tried to kill him. His reference to private prayer was against showy prayers in public for personal aggrandizement. So I think you should reread your Bible, if you have one.
If you think the Rev. Wright is a real Christian with his Marxist Liberation Theology, think again. By the way, there’s a great deal of difference between conservatives and neoconservatives. The neocons were former liberals, including some Trotskyites, who were mugged by reality but refused to press charges. The came out of the LBJ years disillusioned by our liberal media induced defeat in the Southeast Asian War.
But just keep on parroting the far left mantra against Fox News and conservative Christians. It only goes to show the animus liberal demagogues have against fair play and the putting forth of opposing viewpoints. No doubt you believed moveon.org, the Huffington Post, and the Daily Kos are paragons of truthful journalism and cogent political discourse.
TK
Okay, YOU I will reply to as you seem to offer intelligent disagreement.
First, I don’t take the Bible as literally true in all instances for two reasons (among others): 1) I believe in Jesus, but I also believe in dinosaurs, which came and went well before Man’s arrival on the scene - no dinosaurs in the Bible; and
2) Revelation (which concludes the Bible) is written entirely in symbolic language. If the Bible ends with symbolic language, it’s not a wild stretch to conclude that it begins with symbolic language. Would Moses have been able to explain the Big Bang theory to the Israelites? If there WAS a Big Bang, what was there a second, a minute, or a year before? My assumption is there was God (or The Word and The Word was with God). (Infinity is a difficult concept, but if there was a Big Bang, there was, by definition of infinity, something already there before.)
(I take from Genesis that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, they were admonished that life would be tough. And indeed it is! I pray for guidance and understanding, not explanations of events occurring millenia before and perhaps decades after my existence on earth. Some things we are just not given to know. Sadly, John Edwards’ extra-marital sex life and siring of a child outside of marriage during an election season isn’t one of these things! No Attorney General slot for cheatin’ John! As you might perceive, I’m all broke up about this. He was my Senator...and couldn’t carry his own state, although he was born in SC, not NC, where I currently reside.)
It’s simply too convenient (and usually rather sanctimonious) for one to say that one believes the Bible is literally true, thus one knows how the world began and how it will end (if one can even understand the symbolism in Revelation, which isn’t light reading and certainly open to differing interpretations). Only the latter is a matter of concern as we seem to be racing toward this goal. The weather in 2050 en re Global Warming (hoax)? Personally, I don’t believe there will be a 2050 as far as civilization is concerned. Too many nuts with nukes is a recipe for just such an end of civilization...and this is the way things are trending.
Joel Osteen doesn’t do politics; he isn’t a political figure so much as a motivational speaker, as noted before. He doesn’t presume to know the mind of God re specific events as Hagee does, making statements about God’s punishments for our degrading - in the sense of “ongoing” - culture. I don’t blame gays (or several other Biblical no-nos) for 9/11 or natural disasters, ironically dubbed “Acts of God.”
(Gays have been around forever. I never consciously decided to be heterosexual, but in school, when the hormones kicked in, it simply wasn’t guys, but attractive girls who put the rise in my Levis. My johnson seems to have a mind of its own. I seriously doubt that gays can switch sexual preferences anymore than could I. A deliberate decision to be sinners? I don’t buy that.)
However, I think that both heteros and homos are throwing too much of their sexuality in everyone’s face. Can you say, “Bay Watch” (Or “Babe Watch,” the usual alternative name for the show)? I think people should keep their private, personal lives private and personal. I have known and benefitted from gay friends who have helped me out, while I didn’t ridicule their obvious sexual proclivities, and they didn’t throw them in my face. They weren’t gay with ME knowing that I was straight, so this was not a major issue.)
Floridians are worried about rigs that they won’t be able to see from the shore? When the next hurricane devastates Florida, will residents take taxpayer assistance? If people want to live in places where floods and hurricanes devastate large areas (including their homes) from time to time, why should my taxes pay for the freely-made decisions of those who choose to live in such places? Time after time after…
During Katrina, several offshore rigs were put out of action (some remain so), but no oil was spilled. Plus, the plan is NOT to line the shoreline with rigs in plain sight: the plan as I understand it is to extend the drilling sites out as far as 50 miles. Cuba and Russia have teamed up to drill about 50 miles off the coast of Florida. Think this will lower the cost of gasoline?
When I was growing up, Florida was a solid “red state.” This is why it’s annoying that the major networks called Florida for Gore before the state voting was concluded in 2000. If I lived in Pensacola and had been driving to the polls and heard this on the radio, I wouldn’t have bothered to go vote.
So the media, feigning ignorance of FL’s extension across two time zones (this wasn’t the first prez election the networks covered in FL, so simple ignorance won’t cover this betrayal of trust), they tampered with a national election, whereupon Gore disgraced himself by sending in a team of 500 lawyers to throw out the millitary ballots, then the dems had the audacity to say, “Every vote should count.” Except those of the military, ie, those who are willing to risk life and limb to preserve the privilege of fellow Americans to vote. This is beneath contempt, only much lower.
Is there a depth to the stupidity of dems? In San Francisco, they spent $10,000 to set up a “hot line” so guys could phone in and learn how to avoid being forced into an ALL-VOLUNTEER military. The FREE answer: don’t JOIN a volunteer military. Duh.
You raise some interesting points. It’s nice to discuss an issue with someone with an IQ. You made your points clearly, backing them up with rational arguments, instead of going ballistic.
But you give up the right to complain too much about high gas prices...in a state with a major tourism industry.
Not part of the solution, then…
Respectfully,
vox (I assume that you “get” my alias.)
Religion and politics should be kept separate period. How can you be blamed for what your pastor says? My pastor is a good man, but he says many things I do not agree with. How can Obama or McCain be held accountable for what friends, family or pastors say?
I trust Obama more than I do McCain. People are blinded by Muslim bigotry and race. People will actually vote for McCain knowing he will do absolutely nothing the average job. Why? Because they will not vote for a black man.
Fred Miles, I highly doubt you’re a Vietnam veteran, and you’ve certainly never met McCain. If you did you’d never have the courage to say anything. So take your puerile braggadocio and fascist anti-Semitism elsewhere.
Julius, does the fact that I won’t vote for Sen. Obama make me a racist religious bigot? If you really believe that, then tell me, as a conservative Republican Christian why would I vote for a socialist leftist liberal Democrat; be it Obama, Clinton, Edwards, or Kucinich?
However, I would vote for Colin Powell, JC Watts, Alan Keyes, or even Condoleezza Rice before voting for a socialist who favors appeasement and surrender, a welfare nanny state, an energy policy that favors reducing the American standard of living, open borders and giving benefits to illegal immigrants, abortion on demand and infanticide, confiscatory taxation of those who produce wealth, and a scrapping of the Constitution. I’d even favored those I mentioned over Sen. McCain for the top spot.
But you and the Obama campaign should keep on playing the race card. Maybe you’ll overplay your hand and snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
By the way, if McCain had any sense of vision and realized this election is about excitement, he’d choose a black man or woman as his VP pick. In addition to Rice, AK Gov. Sarah Palin would be a good choice as would former HP head Carly Fiorina. But I’ll bet he chooses a wealthy middle aged white man from a swing state and will promptly loose the election.
Well your All-American Christian GOP has bankrupted the country. A non-vote for Obama does not make you a bigot but a vote for McCain makes me wonder? McCain embraces the majority of Bush policies, which have been wrong for the economy and for the world.
War is expensive and Bush has racked up a 9 trillion deficit. At 10.1 billion per month in Iraq our dollar is worth only 6 points. Where do you think we will get the money to pay the bills? Bush’s war on terror has bamboozled the American people.
How can conservative Republican Christians vote for McCain? He is not a conservative and the only person who claims to be a Christian is Obama? Concerning the war in Iraq, nobody there was responsible for blowing up the towers. What about WMD? Sorry but they didn’t find those either. GOP has hoodwinked America. We ask for it when we put two oil-men in charge.
Concerning the race card, I think senator Obama has tried to do everything in his power to run a decent campaign. He has not run a single dirty ad but has focused on the issues and condemned race baiting. McCain is dirty and has been for many years. He is also an adulterer but you won’t hear much about that from the Christian right. They are to busy lying on senator Obama.
voxoreason, I once read an interesting comment on the Bible by a fundamentalist who believed it was literally true. He said we should take the Bible as literally true; if the language is symbolic it’s literally symbolic, if figurative it’s literally figurative. In other words he rejected trying to twist symbolic or figurative language into a literal fact, such as you rightly mention about Revelations. He said however that symbolic and figurative language did convey literal truths. For example, Jesus spoke about taking a beam out of our own eye before going after the speck in someone else’s eye. Obviously He wasn’t talking about a literal beam but about a fundamental truth.
Unfortunately, the MSM in its ignorance and animus towards Biblical Christianity chooses to misinterpret things that people like Pastor Hagee say. To say that God used Hitler to get the Jews back into the Holy Land is not an endorsement of Hitler just as claiming the harsh treatment of the Jews by Pharaoh was God’s way of getting them to leave egypt isn’t an endorsement of the Pharaoh’s conduct. God even used cruel leaders like Nebuchadnezzar to chastise the Jews. But in every instance the oppressors paid for their oppression. That’s even stated in the Scriptures.
Yet many in the liberal media are trying to equate attending a church for 20 years is the same as being endorsed by a pastor from a church one has never attended. That’s absurd but not surprising coming from partisan liberal far left Democratic demagogues. If McCain were found to have attended just one KKK meeting even as a curious observer the left would howl for his head, that he be impeached, that he be disqualified from even running for office. Some liberals have even said that his military service combined with the fact that his father and grandfather served and that his son is serving should disqualify him from becoming president such is their animus towards the military.
Many have said that Bush was God’s chosen leader. I believe that’s true; we deserved him. But it hasn’t been a reward for being good. We have a Constitution in tatters with our leaders in both parties trading essential liberties for temporary security and an economy about to fall apart. I believe that Pres. Obama will be further judgment on the US with his socialist welfare state, his appeasement and surrender, and an effectively one party state. We’ll be seeing a brave new world all right.
So sometimes we should be careful what we pray for. God may give it to us, sometimes in spades. By the way, it’s my belief that someone claiming to be a Christian who says we shouldn’t be involved in the political arena is either not a Christian or a very weak one. We are called to be the salt of the earth. I don’t think the Scriptures literally means NaCl.
Julius, you’re absolutely right, for me as a conservative Republican Christian I find it difficult to vote for McCain so I’m seriously thinking of voting 3rd party, such as the Constitution Party. But you failed to state why a conservative Republican Christian should vote for a supporter of abortion on demand, infanticide, welfare nanny state, an end to the Constitution, redefining marriage, making it a hate crime to say homosexuality is wrong even in a church, and appeasement of aggressive Islam. Yes, Obama claims to be a Christian and I don’t doubt it, but I believe he believes in Liberation Theology which is founded in communism although not Marxism. I do resent the efforts to claim he’s a Muslim educated in an Islamic Madrasah. However, Obama is a socialist and for that reason I can’t vote for him. Not voting isn’t in my repertoire.
For your information, Obama has played the race card a number of times. His remarks about what the McCain forces were trying to do in scaring the public about him were clearly race references. Furthermore, his campaign has intentionally lied about what McCain said about how long we might be in Iraq. So don’t tell me Obama isn’t dirty. I will admit however that seems to be endemic to our political system. I don’t believe a man or woman of integrity, vision, and courage who isn’t beholding to special interests can be elected to high office today. And while voting for who one believes will be the lesser of 2 evils isn’t wrong we can send a message to the major parties by voting for a 3rd party.
As for WMDs, ask the Iranians, the Kurds, and many Iraqis whether or not Saddam used them. And our intelligence agencies even know the serial numbers of the planes that spirited nuclear weapons research equipment out of Iraq. Of course the big thing is that at the time we decided to invade Iraq it was not an imminent threat to us or any of our allies, a requirement under the 1978 War Powers Resolution that allows the president to act without a Declaration of War. And for that and other offenses against the Constitution Bush should be impeached. But that’s another matter for another time.
By the way, you rightly say war is expensive. Tell us; is defeat and submission to Dhimmitude less expensive? And what is your definition of a country being bankrupt. We aren’t officially in a recession yet although I think we’re headed towards one. I think you’re resorting to hyperbole, but you’re right to be concerned about our economic condition. I believe that a Pres. Obama could bring on a depression.
Is everyone here foolish?
MCCAIN IS EPISCOPALIAN AND CONTINUES TO REMAIN IN HIS CHURCH.
MCCAIN DID NOT SPEND 20 YEARS LISTENING TO HAGEE’S PREACHINGS.
HAGEE IS NOT EVEN AN EPISCOPALIAN!
In fact, McCain is not so very religious, unlike his holi...ness, Saint Obama of Reverend Wright.
Plus: Reverend Wright and many of the Jeremiads are members of Chicago Democratic Socialists of America. Is Obama a member of Chigaco DSA (or just a friend)?
Conclusion: The Analogy will not pass the standards of Logic.
But didn’t McCain specifically seek out Hagee’s endorsement despite his record of inflammatory remarks? Yes, he did.
Also, doesn’t it sound like, from the clips provided here in and the CUFI video AIM has posted, that Hagee is un-retracting his remarks attacking Catholics and gays? Remember, he did retract them after they got media coverage. Claiming that his critics “not understand the Bible view” sounds a lot like he’s re-endorsing his previous attacks and that his previous retraction was an empty gesture designed to blunt public scrutiny.
To Julius - #10:
I certainly agree that religion and politics should be kept separate - - insofar as churches/synogogues/mosques/temples, and those who operate them, clearly should NOT advocate for any political candidate or particular political persuasion, policy, or concept.
I think I do feel, however, that if a politician wants to discuss his religious beliefs and practices, e.g., “My strict Christian upbringing and my commitment to my religion today requires me to be opposed to the practice of abortion” - - that would be OK. And, I do think the media should be able to question politicans and candidates on their religious beliefs.
Regarding your question about how a candidate can be blamed for what his pastor says:
You know, I believe it’s a standard operating procedure for many (if not most) people to make judgments about other people based on the company that the other person keeps. (???) I dropped college classes because I did not care for the professor’s point of view; I’ve left a church and selected them based on the particular pastor’s point of view - - and even now, on another topic, people are condemning Obama because as a child he had a short-term relationship with an adult black poet - - because the guy was a member of the Communist Party, apparently at that time!
Really, if convention says an 11 year-old kid shouldn’t be trusted today (at age 46) because he was associated for a short time with an adult communist party member some 35 years ago - - obviously - - lots of people are holding others accountable for the perspectives of those others’ associates (including the religious) - - however long ago, or however infrequent, or however superficial the contact might have been.
In truth, who knows, specifically, what predelictions anyone else has - - or from whom, how, when and from where they got them?
I don’t know if the convention should apply to young kids - - but I think the stereotype of “you’re known by the associations you keep” is often a somewhat useful indicator during adulthood.
(???)
To think an Obama presidency is some sort of Judgment from God is outlandish? If this were true, on what basis? Homosexuality? Abortion? These issues have been prevalent all over the world. Why would God decide to judge America? What about the social injustice and how we have treated our neighbor? Do you think that is worthy of God’s judgment? How about those we stole land from and ran out of town at gunpoint? How about the institutional racism that has created disproportionate education, wages and social status over the last 300 years? How about all those government created ghettos that have become gang-infested cesspools? Surely that would insight a little wrath from on high? A brave new world is what the good old GOP is afraid off and that is why Obama is a threat.
The idea of a socialist welfare state has only become an issue because those who have been in power fear a paradigm shift. Welfare (the dole) started under FDR and his so-called new deal. It created jobs and opportunities for everyone except people of color. If you were not white you did not get the luxury of welfare. The civil rights movement caused the life of many peaceful people of all races. I personally believe if Jesus were here today, he would be a Liberal. I cannot see him fighting against civil rights and equality.
To insinuate Obama surrendering in Iraq is also madness. Who would he be surrendering to? Alkita? These radicals are not just in Iraq? Bush has bamboozled the American people to believe we are fighting a war on terror and it is in Iraq. The people of Iraq want us to leave their nation and McCain says we can’t leave until we win? Senator McCain, the Iraqis people do not want any more favors from America except go home!
America is not a Christian nation and religion and politics should be separated. The nation was founded on Christian principles, but that all changed when it was penned a “nation by the people and for the people”. The people are not all Christian and the President has to be fair, balanced and represent all the American people. There is no room for religious pandering because not all the people are religious and the President is not called to be the salt of the earth.
Why a conservative Republican Christian should vote for a supporter of abortion? Because abortion is not the only issue America is facing? Redefining marriage is already being done and in due season it will be performed in states all across America. Why? Because this is a nation of the people and by the people! Your values are yours alone and you cannot legislate morality. We saw that in the Old Testament and it did not work.
Sure Obama have some Liberation Theology roots. But that does not make him a bad person. Considering mainstream Christian churches did not care to fellowship with blacks until about 10 years ago, I’m glad he did find Rev. Wright. He got the basics and appear to be doing well.
To Julius - #21:
Re your comment: “Sure Obama have some Liberation Theology roots. But that does not make him a bad person. Considering mainstream Christian churches did not care to fellowship with blacks until about 10 years ago, I’m glad he did find Rev. Wright. He got the basics and appear to be doing well.”
It seems to me that the people who came over here on the Mayflower were “liberation theologists”, too - - believing that the religious establishment in their homelands was stifling their freedom to worship as they wished - - so - - their choice was - - “Let’s go somewhere where we can do out own thing!”.
And, of course, in those days, “religion” exerted a powerful influence over the governments of most European nations - - so - - the Pilgrims “liberation” may have been as much “political” as it was “theological”.
I do disagree with you on your statement that Christian churches “did not care to fellowship with blacks until ten years ago”. I’m a white guy, grew up in the northeast, and am well into my 60s - - and there were plenty of blacks in any “white” church service I ever attended - - and there were also a few “blacks only” churches, too! I even attended (and at one time taught at) Christian religious schools - - which had plenty of black (and religious) students at the time!
Maybe the tradition in the south was “separate churches” - - but not so much so in the northeast/New England - - way back in my day - - 40-50 years ago.
To me, Obama seems to be a pretty well-grounded Christian - - and it sure appears that he’s led a “more Christian life” than the current office holder in D.C.
(???)
I do not think Obama is inherently influenced by Liberation Theology. The reason being is because he is now attending a church that has more of an Episcopalian foundation. Many people including myself attend church for the purpose of fellowship. There are many people who are Christian who attend a local church and know very little about the denomination or history thereof. An example would be Catholics who claim to be Christian, but pray to God through mother Mary and not Jesus Christ, count beads and confess sins to a priest? None of this is substantiated through the Bible, but how these believers have come to the conclusion that this is the will of God is perplexing. I conclude it has more to do with relationship and exposure. People are a product of their environment, as it relates to religion, wealth and social status.
Julius, your argument has a great deal of merit with regard to why many people go to a particular church. Much the same can be predicated when it comes to pursuing a political career; establishing long term associations early is crucial. Coming out of an environment that included an atheist socialist mother, socialist step-father, a hard-core communist mentor, a liberal college, knowing the importance of associations and networking, and upon getting into the bailiwick of the Daley Democratic Party machine, the one that fixed the 1960 Cook County (Chicago) election for JFK, thus winning IL and the Electoral Vote that pushed JFK over making him president, Obama sought out the most significant black activist church in Chicago, the most radical party for endorsement, the best Chicago fixer and fund raiser, the most identifiable leftist activist, a former PLO operative and leftist University of Chicago professor, and the best known communist attorney who trained other attorneys to be “community organizers.”
Those people were Rev. Wright who taught Obama communistic Black Liberation Theology for 20 years; the Marxist New Party founded by Daniel Cantor, who was a Jesse Jackson presidential campaign staffer, and which included former Maoists, Trotskyites, and Communist Party USA members, which endorsed Obama for his 1996 IL senate campaign; the convicted Syrian bribery and fraud felon Tony Rezko who raised funds and acquired property for him; the unrepentant communist Weathermen domestic terrorist bombers Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn who launched Obama’s political career from their home; the Middle East professor at the University of Chicago Rashid Khalidi who was former PLO operative and who as a Columbia University professor invited Iranian President Ahmadinejad to speak at Columbia University after his UN speech and who held a number of fundraisers for his friend Obama; and the founder of the Community Organizing movement, a euphemism for communist attorney agitators in poor and minority neighborhoods who use the law as a weapon against society, communist radical Saul Alinsky.
Now many say that associations shouldn’t matter just like those people who said during Bill Clinton’s run and presidency that character didn’t count. More than likely there’re the same people. By their advocation I can only surmise that only officially espoused plans and policies matter in judging the fitness of a person for office. So I guess we old curmudgeon conservatives are out of touch with reality in believing that a person’s past associations, morality, achievements, educational exposure, and conduct are of vital concern for fitness for holding high office. Perhaps that’s why we have so many thieves, child molesters, rapists, drunks, murderers, and traitors in office. Perhaps we have the government we deserve. That doesn’t mean we should look for the perfect candidate, for saints; but that not only do we have the right but also the obligation of judging all aspects of a candidate if we are to call ourselves responsible American citizens.
In my view Sen. Obama is a very moral man with a great family, a good spellbinding orator, and who is quite intelligent. But he lacks experience in the field of executive authority, economics, significant legislation, foreign affairs, and therefore in judgment. He’s a left wing Democrat and socialist who has shown a remarkable lack of eruditeness with regard to the Constitution considering he was a constitutional college instructor. An argument could be made that he’s a socialist-communist although not a Marxist. That’s not meant to be a condemnation but rather an observation. As a Christian, which I believe he is, he would reject atheistic Marxism.
He believes, and I think correctly, that our system is corrupt and has failed both the poor and the middle class of all races but particularly blacks. But I believe it’s the failure of following constitutional principles that has corrupted the once free marketplace and our system of federalism and that socialism is a moral, political, and economic failure. And that’s why I believe Sen. Obama’s past associations are so critical to getting to know who he is and where he’s coming from. Furthermore, he has eschewed one on one hometown type debates where his views and those of Sen. McCain’s could be compared. And by the way, Sen. McCain also has a few problems in my view, but that’s another matter.
Julius, you say we can’t legislate morality and that’s seems to be the summation of your argument against religion “meddling” in the public square, an argument you can’t support from the constitution. Never did I argue that America is a Christian nation or that it should be. For me I’d rather see Christians influencing American politics and culture. Nor did I say what particular reasons God would judge America for. It might surprise you that I would agree with many of the reasons you cite as reasons for judgment. And not only have I said that Obama might be a judgment from God but I’ve claimed the same about Bush. Of course I named current issues as the election is about such issues, not ones from decades or centuries ago, although I have the feeling that those who harp about such are really looking for dissolution of America. But then in order for you to support your position you might have to call me a liar rather than admit what I write. I do understand that liberal demagogues are prone to doing that. By the way, more than 40 years ago my lily white Methodist church associated with a black church, but what’s a few decades? Who cares about honesty or accuracy?
So what do you call laws against theft, fraud, violence, and even murder if not laws legislating a form of morality? After all, those who believe in a Machiavellian or Marquis de Sade approach to governance might disagree with those laws. And I’ve certainly met a number of socialist-communists who would dispute those laws.
As for the question I asked about why should a conservative Republican Christian vote for a supporter of a particular position, I named a number of positions, not just abortion. As I mentioned, but which you ignored seeing as you seem aliterate, I’m not only considering voting for a 3rd party but also believe that Bush should be impeached. But a favorite tactic of disingenuous liberals is to try and separate issues saying that their relationships are irrelevant and thus justify disregarding the sum of the parts. It’s the same tactic being used about the question of Obama’s past radical associations. It’s more than disingenuous, it’s dishonest and sophomoric.
THIS TK IS A FOOL.
EVEN BO WILL WISH FOR THE VOTES OF THE WORST PEOPLE IN AMERICA, INCLUDING THE CHURCH OF RAPISTS,.... AND EVEN OF SATAN. THAT’S ABOUT CAMPAIGNING AND WINNING ELECTION.
That’s different from the issue of Rev. Wright, the 20-year spiritual mentor of BO.
BTW, what’s wrong with Hagee? Many Christians (including BO?), believe that bad things happen to the sinful. For good people, bad things may be considered as a test. Hagee is entitled to his own opinion.
Luckily for McCain, he’s not so religious like the preacher Obamessiah.
Why is Obama not further ahead in the polls? Because he is black. It is so easy to draw the conclusion by reading various blogs and listening to numerous news outlets. The GOP best defense is to use the fear factor based on fear of the black man. No they do not say “BLACK MAN BEWARE,” but he is constantly being associated with Muslims, Communist, Marxist and Socialist. It is an underlining bigotry with the intent of making people afraid of him.
Another thing I have noticed is the GOP and followers have adopted the slogan of “empty suite.” No candidate in the history of running for President has been conjoined with such an attribute. From a historic point of view, such attribute of less value, low value and no value has been analogous with the black race or people of color. Another manifestation of how Obama is portrayed in the right wing media.
What is most interesting is Obama’s political position is not much different than Hillary Clinton? But when was Clinton ever accused of being a Communist, Marxist, or Socialist? It is literally impossible for Obama to be all of these ideologies. Does Obama have questionable associations? Sure does, but what politician does not? Consider for a moment that every great leader on the planet has questionable association, including Jesus, who was accused of being friends of publicans and sinner.
The GOP and followers will not admit it, but it is all about race, as it relates to Obama being a viable candidate and leader of America. His political position is no different from Hillary or Bill Clinton. And his association with Rev. Wright is moot because McCain has been associated with Rev. Hagee. You might say that Obama was a member of the church for 20 years. But it was not an issue until the 20-second sound bites of GD America. Now notice very little has been said about all the other good deeds Rev. Wright and the church has accomplished on the south side of poor inner city Chicago.
What is fair and balanced is in the eye of the beholder. Those who support Obama will vote for him and those who support McCain, no matter how off based he is, will support him.
“… Another thing I have noticed is the GOP and followers have adopted the slogan of “empty suite.” No candidate in the history of running for President has been conjoined with such an attribute ...”
Nonsense! Mitt Romney was the empty suit before he dropped out. 
http://wuzzadem.typepad.com/wuz/2008/01/mccain-by-defau.html
“… So what do you call laws against theft, fraud, violence, and even murder if not laws legislating a form of morality? ...”
I call that prohibiting the violations of others’ individual rights. That of course can be construed as the moral thing to do.
I’d just like to point out that Marxism, Socialism, Communism, and other collectivist philosophies do not necessarily require atheism of their adherents.
Notice the socialist Liberation Theology of the Roman Catholic Jesuits in Central America in the 80s and 90s, or the fact that the majority of Central and South Americans are Roman Catholic and socialism is big down there. Black Liberation Theology just puts a “whitey keeps the black man down” spin on what the Jesuits were agitating for.
Note also that the “isms” above are mostly focused on economics and politics, not religion (although it’s often hard to tell the difference between those as demonstrated in many of the preceding opinions).
“… I take from Genesis that when Adam and Eve were expelled from the Garden of Eden, they were admonished that life would be tough. ...”
In my youth it was always stressed that Adam and Eve were expelled from Eden because they ate from the Tree of Knowledge. Lately I take that to be an explicit condemnation of reason in favor of religious belief.
i.e., If some event or phenomenon seems “miraculous” don’t investigate, BELIEVE!
Adam, Eve and the Garden of Eden? I am no theologian, but most people who read the Bible know that God put the tree of knowledge in the garden for the purpose of bringing redemption through dependence on Jesus Christ? I believe the scriptures say that Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world. Elsewhere the Bible says that we all were created for Him and by Him. If this is true then God set the complete drama in motion for the purpose of bringing all to Him and through complete dependence.
To insinuate that God was taken aback or caught off guard when Adam ate from the tree is complete nonsense. God said the serpent would bruise his heal, but he would crush his head. It was a prophecy referring to Jesus destroying the works of the devil and redeeming mankind.
Concerning Liberation Theology, I can clearly see why certain pockets of the black population took on this teaching. It had to do with the civil rights movement and how many of the black Christians were treated and accepted by white Christians during that time. Let us face it, we were not kind to black people during those days, and we are only talking 40 years ago.
I think Obama is a Christian at hart but has many associations who are not what we call mainstream Episcopalians. We talk about the good old days and how it uses to be, but was it all that good for them? McCain in my opinion is where he is in the polls because you have a bunch of people who are afraid to let go of the past. Good old John is familiar. It does not matter if he will do basically the same Bush has done. He is white and has the look of what many people feel America should look like
John Galt, while you’re quite correct that communism and socialism don’t require atheism, and it could be argued that the very early Christian Church was communist as things were communally shared, Marxism by definition is atheist. I believe that Sen. Obama is definitely a socialist and possibly a communist, but I also believe he’s a Christian. Even if he were a communist that wouldn’t mean he was in favor of revolution or in destroying America, just in changing it into a socialist welfare state with high taxation and a rigidly controlled economy with possible nationalization of key sectors.
However, I don’t believe socialism or communism will work and I therefore won’t vote for Sen. Obama or the Democratic Party. There are other reasons but that’s sufficient. Unfortunately I realize some people like Julius have a need to portray those who will vote for McCain or against Obama as red-necked racists. If I told him I’d vote for Colin Powell, J.C. Watts, or Condoleezza Rice he’d probably just try to ignore that as irrelevant or call me a liar. But as it is, I’m considering a 3rd party.
John Galt, I too was taught that the fruit that Adam and Eve ate, and it doesn’t say apple, was from the Tree of Knowledge. But in my fundamentalist Pentecostal circle that isn’t a condemnation of reason. It’s taught that eating from the tree would let them decide what was moral and what was evil without the guidance of God. In other words, they, and mankind as a result, would become a law unto themselves. Is that not what we have become? Yet elsewhere the Scriptures says God said, let us reason together.
As for miracles, do you think they violate the laws of all of creation? Consider the mathematical discipline of set theory and respond. We’re taught to investigate but what we’re taught not to do is to reject truth when we’ve found it in order to prove our independence or so-called rationality. Another term for such conduct is called rebellion.
“… Marxism by definition is atheist. ...”
Have you ever read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx and Freidrich Engels? I did a long time ago and I don’t recall anything about atheism being part of the definition of the economic system they longed for. The Soviets/Bolsheviks brought that in, I believe, but I’m ready to stand corrected if someone knows differently.
“… It’s taught that eating from the tree would let them decide what was moral and what was evil without the guidance of God. ...”
And Jesus said to Peter something along the lines of whatever you condemn on earth, heaven will go along with and whatever you call good on earth heaven will also go along with. How does that jibe with the “guidance of god” thing? It would seem to me that it puts the whole thing squarely into the hands of self-appointed witch doctors.
And as to Julius’s post, does you mean that god put the forbidden fruit there explicitly so that Adam and Eve would disobey (original sin) and thus pave the way for Jesus to sacrifice himself for redemption of that original sin and reinforce the dependence on god rather than reason? If so, what a cynical bastard he must be. And how does “free will” enter into such a pre-ordained situation? The whole story is irrational.
Immanual Kant saw the explosion of Reason in the “Age of Enlightenment” of the late 18th century and felt compelled to write his “Critique of Pure Reason” in order to “make room for faith.”
I fail to see how faith (belief in something that is not objectively and repeatably provable by any investigator) can be made compatible with reason which demands that facts of reality be used to discover the true nature of reality.
It should be obvious that I am anti-religious, however that doesn’t form the basis for my opinions about who would best lead this nation back to the governance envisioned by those brilliant men who conceived it. They were strongly religious men, but they saw the dangers of governing relations among men on earth by aligning government with religion as witnessed over centuries in Europe.
“Render unto Caesar...” and all that.
Something I read years ago in a Kurt Vonnegut book (Breakfast of Champions?) “stuck” with me. There was a character Bokonon who founded a religion he called “The Church of God the Utterly Indifferent.”
The two main teachings of that church according to Bokonon were:
1. Puny Man can do nothing at all to please or displease God. and
2. Luck is not the hand of God.
Pretty amusing in my opinion, and seemingly accurate summation of an agnostic philosophy.
“… the very early Christian Church was communist as things were communally shared, ...”
The common theme of both religion (Christianity in particular) and collectivism (communism, socialism, marxism, nazism) is altruism: the belief that sacrifice for the benefit of others is the highest virtue. I agree with Objectivists who point out that the only logical end of such a belief is the constant destruction of value and the demonizing of those who seek and create value to promote their own benefit and survival.
John Galt, as you point out, our Founding Fathers were quite wise in “they saw the dangers of governing relations among men on earth by aligning government with religion as witnessed over centuries in Europe.” But the inverse was not enshrined in the Constitution; that religion couldn’t influence or “interfere” with government. We should remember that the restrictions in the Bill of Rights are restrictions on government, not the people.
As for Karl Marx, he didn’t write much directly about religion, or his dislike of it. He did write that “The religious world is but the reflex of the real world.” As such Marx felt that religion was an illusion that provided reasons and excuses to keep society functioning just as it was. Marx, like you, felt that religion was irrational, that it negated human dignity by making them servile, and that it was hypocritical. As Marx wrote, “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.” In light of the foregoing I would hazard a guess that he favored atheism as part of Marxist communism.
By the way, I find it sad but unsurprising that like most atheists you need to denigrate people of faith and mock religious beliefs with crudity. Sadly, I consider that a sign of hatred. I suppose that’s what led to the Psikhushkas and Gulags. Thus it was an atheistic system that killed more people than all of religion in all of history, including the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Witch Trials.
Roberto, you are reading more into what I wrote than I actually wrote. Oh well.
I suppose calling god a cynical bastard and religious leaders self-appointed witch doctors is what ticked you off. I know lots of cynical bastards, some whom I admire, others whom I despise. No man is perfect or omniscient, and those who claim they are deserve skepticism at best and scorn at worst.
To John Galt - Everything has a beginning and end. Everything! The Bible says that God set everything in motion and has an appointed time when it will end. It appears that you are well read, except perhaps the Bible and other commentary related to the Bible. Concerning Christianity, it does require faith but it also involves personal relationship and experience. Many atheists will admit they do not understand Christianity and cannot see the God of the Bible. Many Christians have confirmed their faith with answered prayer. Can all these Christians be fanatical? Unlike other so-called religions, Christianity has been substantiated with many infallible proofs. The relationship with the Jews and the Bible can be confirmed back to thousands of years. Archeologists have actually used the Bible to locate settlements and towns, including addition text confirming Biblical events.
Faith as it relates to Christianity has to do with filling in the blanks. Paul in his letters to the early Christians said everything we have was given, including our faith. That tells me we only have a measure of faith. Paul also said how can the clay tell the potter why was I created without a handle? That tells me that we had nothing to do with our creation or outcome. Paul said that in every house there are vessels created for more honor than others. There are tons of examples that certify the complete sovereignty of God in creation.
Some of the most interesting examples of God’s sovereignty can be seen in the Old Testament. God told Abraham to tell Pharaoh to free the Hebrew slaves. He also told Abraham that He would harden the heart of Pharaoh so that he would not release them? Before Abraham took the job, he told God he was not eloquent in speech. What God said next was fascinating! God said to Abraham who do you think made man dumb? Was it not I?
I can give example after example. One of the most interesting was God’s prayer concerning the first disciples. He was praying for them and said all have been kept except for the son of perdition? Paul said the Gospel is hidden to those who are perishing! Now that is scary if you fit those shoes. There is just too much in creation that confirms a higher authority.
The best example in laymen terms that I have seen is the movie Matrix. The whole program was written and each individual is a player. No matter how much you think you are in control, you are not. The path and outcome has already been determined. You may choose to go left or right but did you actually make the choice? Even the hairs on your head are numbered.
John, I’m not reading more into what you wrote than what you intended. You’ve made it clear in several posts about your disdain and animus for religion and people of faith. You take Scripture out of context such as that about Peter and binding and loosing in order to try and heap ridicule. I stand by my assertion that both are a sign of hatred. If that ticks you off, so be it.
Also you stated that you didn’t believe that Marx posited that his theory embraced atheism. I believe I’ve also answered that contention. Or did I erroneously read more than what you intended into what you wrote with regard to Marxism as well?
By the way, God isn’t a man, so don’t use the strategy of twisting words to try and win a point. But to bring it around to the subject of the forum, that’s what the Rev. Wright did with his Black Liberation Theology, whereas Rev. Hagee preached from the Scriptural concepts. Another concept that seems to escape liberals is the difference between someone attending a church for 20 years in one instance and someone who didn’t attend another church at all. That liberals seem unable to make the distinction is troubling.
I don’t hate people of faith. I disdain people who arrogate Truth to belief. My antipathy towards religion is due to its requiring rejection of reason, logic, and objective evidence of facts.
WRT “proof:”
Proving that a 3000 year old village written about in scripture actually existed does not prove that a supernatural being exists. There is a huge difference between writing about physical places, or historical characters and writing about what a “supernatural being” supposedly told one of those historical characters. The former can be verified, the later cannot.
Scriptures that have been translated and interpreted over the last 3000 years from dead languages to various other languages. That provides an excellent indication that what is written and read today is many layers of interpretation on what was written a long time ago. Who doesn’t tend to exaggerate things in the telling and retelling of stories, particularly details that emphasize some virtue or moral?
When people say that god told them this or that, it is valid to question what they assert, just as it is valid to reject people “hearing voices telling them to murder” as being either rational or justified in their murder.
“Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.” I’m not sure who said that, but it partially illustrates my point.
When some event takes place that to the event’s observers seems miraculous or beyond their understanding, those observers will attribute the causes of the event to supernatural forces or beings. When they tell others about the event, they often include assertions very similar to the statements contained in Julius’ last post.
While the event and its ultimate effect may indeed be historically correct (e.g., pharaoh wouldn’t release the Jews from their bondage), the causes of the event (god “harden[ed] the heart of Pharaoh") are interpretive window-dressing provided by the narrator to emphasize a lesson and to “prove” his belief in a supernatural causation.
“… Also you stated that you didn’t believe that Marx posited that his theory embraced atheism. I believe I’ve also answered that contention. ...” - Roberto
“… I’d just like to point out that Marxism, Socialism, Communism, and other collectivist philosophies do not necessarily require atheism of their adherents. ...” - John
“… so don’t use the strategy of twisting words to try and win a point. ...” - Roberto
Practice what you preach, brother.
John, you claim that religion “automatically” rejects reason, logic, and objective evidence provided by facts. Yet your condemnation is merely an assumption as I’ve found my religion doesn’t reject reason, logic, or evidence but embraces such. But it does recognize that man’s reasoning, logic and interpretation of evidence can be and often is faulty. So I don’t accept your protestations that you don’t hate people of faith and have a hubristic disdain for them.
As for your launch into “WRT” proof’”, I have no idea of it’s relevance to what I said about atheism’s relationship to Marxism or the question about the differences between claims about Wright’s and Hagee’s relationship to the candidates. But I suppose it’s meant to sidetrack the argument, as are the multiple posts to one of mine. My comment “That liberals seem unable to make the distinction is troubling,” still stands and is reinforced by your response. Besides, we got to the point of discussing Marxism and atheism, not communism and socialism. So in practicing what I preach I’ll ask you to quit being aliterate.
By the way, I’m not your brother, but I’d like to be. You see, believers in Jesus as the Messiah sent by God as stated in the Gospels are my brothers and sisters. The door is open if you wish to step thru.
Roberto:
I combined responses to both your and Julius’ posts, so the proof discourse was in response to Julius. Sorry for your confusion.
I have no problem with your contention that Marxists (or Marx himself) “embrace” atheism, I simply stated they did not “require” it. If your quote attributed to Marx is correct, I stand by my recollection that quote was not found in the Communist Manifesto but concede my recollection may be incorrect. I have no intention of re-reading that book anytime soon.
I also have no problem with your distinction between the Hagee and Wright issues.
I do take issue with 2 of your presumptions and/or judgments about me. I am not a “liberal,” except in the Jeffersonian sense, nor am I a hater. I’m sorry you confuse sarcasm and skepticism with hatred.
There are in fact many people of strong faith in my life whom I love dearly. I just disagree with them about certain things I find irrational.
I addressed your aliterate contention in another post a month or so ago. Seems you like using that one, so I’ll just leave it alone.
John, I don’t know why you trying to excuse the fact that Karl Marx and most Marxist “theologians” oppose all religion except their own of Humanism. But to set your mind at ease, my quote of Marx was not from the Communist Manifesto. But the following is, “There are, besides, eternal truths, such as Freedom, Justice, etc., that are common to all states of society. But Communism abolishes eternal truths, it abolishes all religion, and all morality, instead of constituting them on a new basis; it therefore acts in contradiction to all past historical experience.”
Now I don’t know about you but I find it pretty definitive as to Marx’s attitude towards religion. I suppose you could resort to dialectics to refute the quote. But I really think you need to concede that mainstream Marxism per se is atheistic. By the way, should I assume you’re a Marxist? After all, you say you’re not a liberal.
Another point, sarcasm is usually a showing of disdain and when repeatedly done so it does indicate hate.
By the way, what “aliterate contention” of mine did you address a month ago? Was that the Wright Hagee issue? If so I missed that. It is the focus of this forum, is it not? Marxism comes into the matrix because Wright preached a Black Liberation Theology that mixes many aspects of Marxism into it. And with Sen. Obama’s other past associations it’s therefore fair to question whether of not he’s a socialist or a communist, is it not?
I stand corrected, but not to put too fine a point on things, anti-religious is not the same as atheistic.
I am not Marxist by any stretch of the imagination. You must not have read much of what I post here to think that.
I am an enemy of all collectivist/altruist philosophies and a promoter of laissez-faire Capitalism. I am an admirer of Ayn Rand although some of her writing inspires me to affectionately call her Ayn Rant!
I find her philosophy of Objectivism accords with my thinking, although I often disagree with some so-called Objectivists who seem to insist that only certain slavishly-rote parrots are “real” Objectivists and those who disagree with them are “evil.”
There’s a decent summary of Rand’s philosophy (and the controversies within Objectivism) on wikipedia if you’re interested: search for Objectivism and read the one ascribed to Ayn Rand.
I find nearly all Democrats but especially Obama to be socialists and social authoritarians. There are plenty of “compassionate conservatives” who fall into that classification as well, unfortunately.
You and I had a back-and-forth over the difference between aliteration and alliteration a while back I believe.
Just because Obama is a Liberal does not mean he wants to put everybody on welfare. I do not know how much attention you paying the American economy, but our country is hurting right now. Sure the Republicans say no to taxes, but have you noticed how much debt we have racked up under the Bush administration? What that does is reduce the value of our dollar, which is currently at 6 points. A weak dollar reduces our buying power, which causes retailers to raise prices on good and services. George Herbert Walker Bush said if elected he would not raise taxes. The famous read my lips speech proved to be just words, as he had no choice but to raise taxes. AT least Obama is telling what he plans to do?
No quarrel on the deficit or the debt issues Julius. It’s rotten and wrong and is due to uncontrolled spending addiction in both Congress and the Administration.
I should point out that all spending is proposed and approved by Congress before the President signs the bill, and even if he vetoes some bill, Congress often overrides that veto. Higher taxes are not the answer, lower spending is. Higher taxes suppresses Gross Domestic Product and increases government spending’s percentage of GDP which at 40% presently is totally insane!
High taxes, artificially low interest rates, high deficit spending and huge national debt all act to suppress the value of the dollar and the effect is stealing money from us all.
What Obama is planning to do (or at least at this particular moment since he changes his position so frequently) is to raise taxes. Yes he tells you that, but he obfuscates the fact that his promised $1000 “gift” to lower-income people has to be stolen from someone. Higher taxes on corporations and producers in general are simply passed onto consumers in the form of higher prices.
I should also point out that Federal taxes are only part of the picture. States are just as bad as the Federal government with respect to spending and deficits and debt and sticking it to you with taxes. Politicians always have their hand in your wallet!
No matter how many people are dissatisfied with congress, the bottom line is the President is responsible. This is how it has been for the last 300 year. The president signs the bills. No one wants higher taxes. Not even the Democrats. However, we have a situation where the president lied to American and convinced the people that Iraq is our enemy and strong-armed congress into approving 10.2 billion per month tab to fund the war.
Everyone agrees lower spending is the answer. But we are beyond that now. The 40% GDP was much lower under the Clinton administration. If anyone has created a welfare state, it is Bush. The GDP has doubled under his administration. Bank failures, housing meltdown and GDP are all failures under President Bush. Now it is time to pay the piper. There is no way around it. Mark my words; the next President will raise taxes.
The next President will need to cut pork and look at everything we are throwing money at. The war machine needs to be shut down ASAP. Tax dollars will need to be channeled to infrastructure. Our bridges have not bee overhauled in 40 plus years. I would like to see something like what FDR did when he put the country to work.
Obama has modified his position on oil drilling. But if you want to talk flip-flop, then McCain is chief of the flip-flops. Why do you suppose he is called a maverick? He has changed his mind on EVERY position he stands for. He agreed with the Bush policies 95% of the time last year and disagrees with him on everything this year. We are not sure what McCain stands for. Is he a Christian? Is he a conservative? Will he raise taxes or not? Honestly, I do not know who McCain is.
Higher taxes on corporations and producers does not necessarily mean the cost will be past onto consumers. What many economist believe is smaller business will have more headroom to compete with giants like Wal-Mart and Exxon. That is why Obama has millions supporting his plan.
John Galt,
We did have a discussion on the word aliterate. One thing I once wrote to a conservative was:
Why do liberals who think they’re so literate are actually semi-illiterate when they say someone using the word aliterate is illiterate. Of course I’m being alliterate.
I think I sprained my brain when I wrote that one.
As for the economy, if it were you or me in such a position as the government is, we would have to cut back on purchases, particularly frill, take a second job, and maybe sell off some assets. But I guess when you become a Democratic or Republican politicians that rule somehow magically disappears.
Nevertheless, when you’re on the verge of a recession, and we are headed into one if not in one, if you institute the highest tax increase in American history you risk not only a severe recession, but a depression. Now how can the government reduce expenses?
There is only one effective way is can be done. First off, everyone agrees that entitlement programs such as Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and interest payment are off the table for any serious cuts. So what program can be cut back drastically just to balance the budget, not to mention pay for increases in things like welfare payments, socialized medicine, and energy rebates? Not only must we withdraw from Iraq, but also Afghanistan, Europe, SW Asia, and the Far East. We will have to reduce the military to levels reminiscent of just after WWI and close a significant number of bases, starting with the BRAC list of about 150 installations including 33 major bases. That would be just for starters. As a result America would have to withdraw as a major military world power, deferring to China and Russia and become Isolationist Fortress America. Anything less will as I said risk a depression.
To put it mildly, we’re between a rock and a hard place. If we elect Sen. McCain the problem isn’t going to go away. My suggestion used to be that perhaps we should consider pulling most of our troops home from Europe and Japan and adopt part of the 2005 BRAC plan. But look at our impotence at dealing with Russia’s attempt to retake its former Soviet Republics starting with Georgia. The East Europeans are quite anxious with good reason.
Also I feel that most Europeans and Americans don’t understand the Muslim worldview and its threat. We’re involved in WWIII with Islam and have been for about 40 years. According to Islamic holy books and teaching, their goal is to convert the world, by force if necessary. Under Islam there’re three options for people in Islamic dominated lands; conversion, Dhimmitude, or death. That’s why I’m concerned about the Democrats’ apparent appeasement attitude and Sen. Obama’s associations. So now my suggestion is that we buy prayer rugs and learn the direction to Mecca.
By the way, if you find religion so offensive, wait until you live in a Caliphate.
August 1 at 2:05 pm | #1 | Link
I certainly believe American has suffered a socio-cultural decline over the last 35 years or so - - and I believe a re-energizing of what appears to me to have been formerly stronger beliefs and more active participation in organized religion - - would be a plus.
BUT - - so-called “pastors” like Wright AND Hagee are just another variety of egocentric extremist spouting the propaganda they feel is necessary to achieve their personal agendas, whatever they may be, and, of course, to keep themselves in the public eye and fill those collection baskets!
And supposedly “orthodox believers” like Lieberman? Garden-variety chameleons! Lieberman has been in the political public eye for some 40 years - - and can anyone tell me exactly how his ostensible religious “orthodoxy” has significantly contributed even one tiny wit to improving morals, mores, ethics, or errant behavior over those 40 years? He’s just a lifer politican who goes where the political winds blow him.
And Wright and Hagee? Just egocentric, extremist, publicity and money-grubbing “religio-politicos”!
Unfortunately, extremism begets extremism - - and there are some people out there who “religiously” repond to Wright’s, Hagee’s and Liebermnan’s kind of propagandistic crap. (And, of course, not to play favorites, we also have the Fr. Pfleger version of these smoke-blowers!)
These kind of people take the real religiosity out of religion!