Mr. Kincaid:

Even I was going to take the easy way out of this one, just put head in sand and refuse to attempt de-threading the AIDS angle to the media’s Wright/Obama confusion. I’m so grateful you took it on. I read your piece and was very impressed at the way you untangled it all so accurately.

You taught me things I did not know—despite 22 years on the beat—or had forgotten.

I pulled down the Koehler book, and wanted to share this amazing tidbit: The Indian newspaper that first broke the AIDS Virus As US Biological Weapon “story” in 1986, (The Patriot) was funded by the KGB and its editor was the recipient of the astonishingly named “Stalin Peace Prize.”

This is very critical, what you bring up here—the Cold War roots of all these notions. 

The media reserves a clump of disdain for anybody who objects to anything that has ever occurred under the mushroom cloud of “the fight against AIDS.”

In this regard, they are exhibiting Bolshivik tendencies—auto-hostility against ‘counter-revolutionaries.’

They’ve always accused the AIDS “denialists,” formerly “dissidents,” of being frothing right wingers. I have personally been equated with the KKK, with Holocaust Deniers, Flat-earthers, Homophobes, and people who walk round wishing to kill Africans, born and unborn.

My father always finds the humor in it, even when I don’t.

He speaks very admiringly of you, and suggested in the past that I lay some stuff on you but I am glad to see you were already on the story.

Thank you.

Great job.

May angels grant you the stamina to keep going. This is a very, very big story.

A very good ‘puff’ piece for continuing the disinformation propaganda machine!

Sorry. No sale. Too much independant info contradicting this.
RAM

“The 1971 flowchart makes it perfectly clear, the design, intent and purpose of the U.S. Special Virus program. As Dr. Peter Piot, Executive Director of UNAIDS says, the HIV/AIDS virus is the result of many steps in the laboratory, it was no accident.
The 1971 flowchart provides absolute evidence of the United States’ intent to kill its own citizens and others.” – Dr. Boyd E. Graves

It is amazing what goes on under the shadow of “Religion”.  I am saddened that this is what the world is willing to accept.  On the other hand, It is good that someone is willing to call the outrageous claims for what they are and call for accountability.  Unfortunately, the forum is small here, and the masses tend to listen to the hysteria.  Keep the diligence.

Boyd Graves definitely has documents, but it’s no surprise that the US government was investigating viruses and cancer. That was the whole problem with the “War on Cancer”, it was far too heavily focussed on viruses as the cause rather than environmental toxins. Perhaps someone had the brilliant idea to create a synthetic virus and cure cancer with it, and perhaps some generals decided that it could be a weapon.

I don’t know about that, but I do know that far more fundamental questions need to be asked about HIV. Let’s start with purification. The virus has never been purified. Consequently, it is impossible to validate HIV tests (since the tests must be validated against the unambiguous presence or absence of the virus). And without the HIV test everything else falls apart.

Why are people getting sick and dying? Well, every ‘risk group’ also has another exposure to immunosuppressive and/or carcinogenic compounds … inhalant and injection drugs, injected blood products, malnutrition.

The real criminality of HIV/AIDS is the selling of fear, and the selling of highly toxic drugs as ‘life saving’, despite the reams of scientific information indicating that they are deadly. The HIV/AIDS drug train is careening out of control. And Rev. Wright is on that train, promoting HIV testing and AIDS drug use. His fear-mongering will just help get more blacks to falsely accept a death sentence and then take expensive pharmaceutical compounds to ‘cure’ it.

One more thing, you can listen to me debate Boyd Graves at:

http://aras.ab.ca/audio/20080401-The Great AIDS Debate – Dr. Graves vs. Mr. Crowe.mp3

RAM,

as I have told Boyd Graves before, his flow chart proves intent (but not success) by the US government to develop a race specific biological weapon. And that intent isn’t really a secret. Anyone who lived the 70s may remember that there was ample discussion of that intent in the press at one time.

It’s the success where Graves’ theory falls down.

HIV, being a retrovirus, has no mechanism to cause anything. It isn’t even present in a large number of people with AIDS, HIV Tests notwithstanding – they check for non-specific proteins thought to be associated with antibodies to the virus.

The “epidemic” is real, however it is entirely iatrogenic.

Wrong diagnosis and damaging treatment, combined with huge amounts of money for research and drugs make for an ugly mix. But we have already seen similar scenarios in other areas such as cancer. Actually, it was the “war on cancer” that gave us research into retrovira as a possible infective cause for cancer. Didn’t work out, so the retroviral meme was recycled into Aids.

“It would be a tragedy if Wright’s wild charges prevent an open and honest debate about the nature of AIDS.” Yes, indeed, but it hardly seems fair to imply that Wright could conceivably bear some primary responsibility for preventing a fair scientific discussion of the nature of HIV and AIDS. This much needed debate has been actively suppressed for many years by the very officials at the CDC and HIH whom we entrust to nurture and fund such debates. The pubic trust has been betrayed, yes, but it started long before Reverend Wright entered the scene.

For an example of what a responsible debate might resemble, have a look at Henry Bauer’s HIVSkeptic blog.

Thanks for sheddding some light on this unbelievable story. The first time I heard of this was when all the Wright comments hit the news. At the very least your article throws this AIDS conspiracy theory into the realm of the speculative, which classifies it as just another conspiracy theory. It might be fodder for some far fetched media outlet like Coast to Coast AM, but for CBS to air this proves their gullibilty, their stupidity, and their complete irresponsibility as a news agency. I’ll paraphrase Newton’s third law a little to apply here: For every truth their is an opposite untruth or fabrication. This story falls under the latter. Wright, Farrakan and Horowitz have traded the truth for a lie to promote their anti-American sentiment. Here’s another black victimiztion fabrication: President Bush deliberately withheld aid from New Orleans after Katrina because he wanted blacks to die. What absolute fabrications these stories are, yet they are believed by some. Here’s one more Newton analogy: For every intelligent, unbiased, critical thinking human being there is an opposite prejudiced fool who will believe anything.

The HIV dissent “movement,” has no particular political tint, but one can readily state that it has been attacked almost exclusively by the haute left—the Voice, Nation, CJR, etc.

The conservative media mostly haven’t weighed in, while the Libertarian media have more or less joined in the drubbing of dissidents as “denialists.” (Brian Doherty at REASON is one notable exception.)

The left love government and more or less love Pharma, as an extention of Nanny State. They love sick people because sick people allow them to pump indignation, moral superiority, and facile notions about how and why sickness occurs, which places blame squarely at the feet of Daddy (which is a fusion of State, Corporations, Politicians, etc—never the individual who might wish to heal him or herself.)

The left love genetic determinsim and the concept of Viral Plagues, a la Laurie Garrett’s unending glut of never fulfilled Plague scenarios.

The left essentially created the AIDS PR zeppelin as we know it, and their hatred of dissidents reflects this.

The right, I would say, are more open to the anti-pharmaceutical movement as they realize how much Big Pharma is morphing into Big Brother, and desecrating human freedoms. Ferocious attacks on HIV Rethinkers from the right are limited to Michael Fumento, and a few others here and there.
The HIV Rethinking movement is steeped in humanist values: An opposition to state coersion, “science” that is rogue and unproven and limits personal freedom starting with the freedom not to be killed, the importance of parental rights in the face of pharma/state violence, the importance of open debate and a free media, and last but not least, a rejection of the lurid racism implicit in the HIV paradigm.

For this reason, you will find people of all political persuasions, colors, ages, stripes in the HIV Rethinkers ever expanding tent—from conservative writer Tom Bethell to radical Olympic gold medalist Lee Evans.

Anybody who hopes to use it for political gain will be disappointed; It is the intersection of Lysenkoist science and whole new freedom movement in the pharmaceutical age.

The media have failed the story catastrophically, and been the driving force in the 24 year pogrom of censorship, violence, shaming, and professional assassination that has been the plight of every single journalist who tried to approach this as a story to simply be reported.

It has all been documented.

This is the big story here—how media managed to keep an elephant of a story in the room, invisible, for a quarter of a century, inside western democracies.

Fortunately, mass media is itself the shot and sagging elephant Orwell gave us to depict Colonialism in his famous essay. Going down slowly, unable to comprehend why.

The truth could set you free…

of any need to invoke conspiracy theories

and of havingn to accept the view that black people are disproportionately impacted by HIV/AIDS because of their behavior.

All published data about “HIV prevalence” show that it has been stable for two decades and has been distributed geographically in unaltered fashion for two decades; no infection, no sexually transmitted disease, behaves like that.

Testing “HIV positive” does not detect a virus, still less an active infection by a virus; it is a non-specific physiological response, which is why it varies with age, sex, and race in a perfectly predictable and reproducible way.

The only way to recognize this truth is to actually look at the evidence. Anyone can do this because the CDC documents, and at least abstracts of most articles in medical science including about “HIV” and “AIDS”, are freely available. Several hundred of the relevant publications are cited in my book The Origin, Persistence and Failings of HIV/AIDS Theory (McFarland 2007), see http://failingsofhivaidstheory.homestead.com/

The choice is rather clear: accept opinions of other people, or look at the evidence for yourself.

I have questioned, challenged and debunked the junk science surrounding HIV/AIDS since 1984 and I am just beginning to realize that we are discussing the cause of something that has no proof for its basic assumption, namely that a CD4 cell deficiency is a valid scientific explanation for any clinical disease, let alone AIDS.

The Concorde study (1993) demonstrated that CD4 cells neither correlate to nor predict, either disease progression or death, in people said to have AIDS and yet, since 1993, two thirds of all the AIDS cases are people who, with no clinical illness and no AIDS indicator diseases, are claimed to have AIDS because they test positive on a non-specific antibody test and have low CD4 counts.

Something is very wrong with this picture!

Wright’s right, but he has the wrong pathogen.

Hiv’s a totally benign retrovirus which was created by modifying a harmless chimpanzee virus known as SIV—Simian Immunodepressive Virus. The real AIDS pathogen is Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus. Read all about it by searching (googling) patent number 5242820 and decide for yourself whether this manufactured cell-wall deficient bacteria-like form can do all of the things falsely attributed to HIV; and whether M.Fermentans Incognitus satisfies Koch’s Postulates as the most likely causative agent for the kind of immune depression present in Aids patients. Hiv does not. For the novice all of these issues are available for study on the internet.

Hiv is a “false-flag” pathogen, created and “discovered” to throw researchers off the trail of the real Aids pathogen because a study of these mycoplasmas would lead directly to the true origin of Aids and other illnesses such as Gulf War Syndrome. This origin lies in biological warfare research and targeting of specific communities—gays, blacks and drug addicts. Is it just a coincidence that these communities remain the greatest risk groups for Aids?

Aids was vectored directly into the gay community by way of hepatits B vaccine. Before Gallo and Heckler made their big announcement that he had discovered the cause of Aids, the hepatitis B vaccine was viewed by many as the most likely vector for the disease. After the announcement all research was focused directly on HTLV-lll/LAV, which is HIV, and other areas of research were abandoned. HIV performed just as hoped for by the Aidists and has been doing so ever since to the tune of hundreds of billions of dollars

It is commonly believed that scientists have answered the most basic question about Aids: “Why gays?” But there is nothing in the literature which makes a convincing case that gays should be any more susceptible to immune depression than any other community.

There is a branch of the Aids “rethinking” movement, perhaps lead by Peter Duesberg and David Crowe, which claims that Aids was originally a result of the misuse of recreational and illegal street drugs, but I believe that this kind of etiology and epidemiology employs the same method as that used by those who claim that hiv causes Aids: epiphenomenal correlation.

Correlation does not equal causation.

Wright got it right, but hiv is innocent. Hiv was created using the same kind of genetic engineering as was used in the creation of SHIV—Simian Human Immunodepressive Virus. And it was created as a scapegoat for the true cause of the illness.

Google: “chimeric viruses” and read all about it.

African Aids has nothing to do with HIV. It’s just more of the same old illnesses brought on by poverty, contaminated drinking water, and other so-called “Aids-defining” illnesses such as T.B. The repackaging of these diseases under the name “Aids” has been one of the greatest marketing coups in pharmacorpial history. False-flag Hiv probably arrived in Africa by way of small-pox vaccination. It has been proven that Africans did not carry the virus before the Aids debacle began in America.

A vaccine will never be developed for hiv because the human immune system does not see this simple, 9-kilobase retrovirus as a threat. The vaccine hunters have painted themselves into a corner because, having created the surrogate markers of antibody positivity, viral load and CD4 count with which to diagnose Aids, they must therefore use these same surrogates with which to test the efficacy of their vaccines—which makes me suspect that there is a god, after all. The Aidists will never overcome the “intelligence” of the human immune system to needlessly force upon it something for which it has no use—a preventive vaccine to prod the immune system into doing something that it is already doing well—creating antibodies. Remember this: It is the existence of these antibodies which the Aidists claim heralds immunodepression. So why attempt to create a vaccine that will goad the immune system into creating antibodies? Hopefully, the absurdity of this hiv vaccine search will become apparent to the general community, and the many billions wasted on this research will be redeployed in the near future.

Preliminary hiv screening depends upon the patient having a positive antibody reaction to hiv antigens. The existence of these antibodies means that the patient’s immune system is functioning properly, not that fatal immune depression and death is impending.

Being hiv-positive means absolutely nothing except that the immune system has successfully responded to the presence of hiv antigens.

The “hiv-causes-aids” paradigm represents a complete corruption of the sciences of virology and immunology, and medical science in general.

There are two possible avenues of resolution to this controversy. 

The first lies in the objective and scientifically viable statistical analysis of hiv-positive people over a period of ten years. This would necessitate that all of the existing medical records regarding antiretroviral treatment and lifestyle be made available to a non-conflicted research agency. The second method of resolution of the controversy is that a thousand low-risk individuals with healthy immune systems volunteer to be injected with hiv with their progress studied over a ten-year period.

The result of such studies would be that hiv-positive people who live a healthy lifestyle and who refuse to take the anti-retroviral drugs would be at no greater risk of developing Aids than anyone else in the general community.

The antiretrovirals, in many cases cause the very illnesses which they are intended to treat, because they are chemotherapies and target every cell in the human body with their cell- replication-preventing capabilities.

Nancy Padian proved that hiv is only marginally transmissable by sex: One in one thousand instances.(Although she claims that she proved no such thing). The studies I have suggested would prove that Hiv doesn’t cause Aids.

Mr Kincaid,

We wrote a post on myspace.com/blac_ny, that ‘Wright is ‘right’, US government created HIV’. Let me say we simply cited the many books (we don’t think every one was ‘communist misinformation) supporting this pervasive belief in the Black community that HIV was created in a ‘lab’ (We question the position that HIV and AIDS was created to kill Black people. We know it first came to the media’s attention because of its effect on White gay men. So, if HIV was man made, it must have been created to kill both ‘outcast’ populations) First, we think we r on the same page (the fight against misinformation on HIV and AIDS). Although we (I) have lived with a so-called ‘positive’ HIV test since 1992 (started and stopped AIDS meds years ago) and ‘my’ brother, on AIDS drugs, died from liver disease with a so-called ‘undetectable viral load’, ‘I’ still have questioned over the years the theory that HIV causes AIDS (and I have an open mind on the existence of HIV)This includes my questions about the effectiveness of the AIDS ‘cocktail’. We have always liked David Crowne, Pres. of ‘Rethinking AIDS’ (we heard the ‘Boyd/Crowne debate) and we r members of ‘Rethinking AIDS’. I have personally attended NYC HEAL meeting . Plus, I ‘love’ Henry Bauer’s book which challenges the believe that HIV is a epidermic. . Our questions were directed toward the comment by Rev. Wright that the US government created AIDS(although we believe Wright has hurt Obama’s campaign). 80% of Black people believe the ‘HIV was created by the US government long before the Wright controversy. NO question, the Wright comment directly challenges the belief that HIV has never been scientifically proven to exist and it challenges the HIV’doesn’t discriminate’ dogma. Clearly, the Black community has ‘not’ been largely engaged in the ‘does AIDS exist debate (except for Dr. Boyd and Tony Brown’s belief that AIDS was created by man) Providing Black people with the information on the different beliefs and Books supporting the belief that HIV was created in a biowarfare lab is a part of our mission. You must admit, the fact that Africa is the so-call epicenter of AIDS and a disproportionate number of the Black community has positive HIV test results, adds gas to the conspiracy theories. Perhaps the ‘debate’ will create more interest in the truth among Blacks where the belief that HIV is a ‘crisis’ in the Black community dominates much of what is said about HIV and AIDS. Respect. DENNIS

Reverend Wright – and Boyd Graves – could not be more wrong about the knuckleheads at the NIH. In fact they were looking for a virus that caused cancer – it was part of Nixon’s War On Cancer. It was a total failure because there is no such virus. When the “gay plague” came along – immune illness primarily among malnourished gay men who were using nitrite poppers and other drugs – Gallo and others saw the opportunity to save the “virus cancer” labs and his career.

Boyd Graves misunderstands the historical evidence, and makes his living selling the purported “documents” allegedly proving the evil intent, through Internet spam. He has no answer to the fact that HIV has never been purified, that the tests do not and cannot test for it. They in fact test for antibodies and other biomarkers, and are positive for 60+ ordinary diseases and even pregnancy, with a bias against African Americans. If anything, there is the conspiracy.

By pushing the “government created virus” conspiracy, Boyd Graves, and his followers such as Reverend Wright, do an injustice to African Americans by diverting them from learning the truth about HIV testing and AIDS.

I too share many of the above sentiments and there isn’t any need to repeat them. As a full-blown AIDS person, who has a high viral load and low CD4’s and do not take the antiretroviral medications and there are many others such as myself out here, we must question the validity of HIV causing AIDS.

Antiretroviral medications and not HIV are causing AIDS along with the life-styles, etc. of those who acquire AIDS. It is right to question the HIV hypothesis, as this is the biggest, medical blunder of all time.

I was very encouraged to read the comments of Noreen Martin and D. Levy—both hiv-positive. It is through the candid and unafraid voices of hiv-positive people that this disgusting medical hoax will eventually be exposed. The right to reliable and valid medical treatment must be considered a human right. I have long advocated that the Aids rethinking movement needs to be recharged as a conventional civil rights movement, employing all of the tactics of former movements, including protest marches and civil disobedience.

In order for this to happen the victims, who are the hiv-positive people, must lead the way, as it has alway fallen to the oppressed to be the authors of their own liberation.

The medical farce works by encouraging people in high risk groups to have an hiv antibody test. If they should test “positive,” they are lured, shamed and sometimes even forced, to begin the surrogate marker examinations, (viral load, CD4 count), then the murderous antiretroviral treatments which cause the very symptoms and disorders that are wrongly designated as “hiv-related illnesses.”

It’s almost the perfect scam.

When the patients come down with the symptoms—really side effects of the meds—their doctors will most often tell them that the symptoms are a sign that their so-called “hiv-illness” (the latest marketing coup), is progressing or that the side-effects may be troubling, but that the alternative—a more rapid progression to “full-blown Aids”—will be much worse.

As an example of this I encourage the reader to do an internet study of so-called “hiv-related neuropathy,” and “hiv medication related neuropathy,” and to decide which is the likely cause of the disorder, the virus or the medication.

Thanks again to Noreen Martin and D. Levy for speaking out.

Curious that an atypical bacterium, mycoplasma, has been proposed as the real culprit in those apparently infected with HIV.  Were this the case, responses to macrolide antiobiotics would long since have been documented and published.  Mr. Green might best spend some time on the wards to see that macrolides of all types have had little or no effect on this illness.  To state otherwise requires some references.  Mr Green?  Hello?

Thanks for the question, Chris Foley. The answer came immediately to mind. Mycoplasma fermentans incognitus is intrinsically resistant to the macrolides. The reference is on the PubMed site. Search for: “Mutations in 23rRNA Account For The Intrinsic Resistance To Macrolides in Mycoplasma Hominis and Mycoplasma Fermentans And For Acquired Resistance To Macrolides in M. Hominis.”
by S.Pereyre, P.Gonzales et al.

Chris Foley, Truman Green:

Luc Montagnier’s team pubished two sorely neglected papers reporting that “HIV” doesn’t kill cells in the presence of tetracycline antibiotics. They concluded that the actual pathogen is a mycoplasma: Lemaitre et al., Research in Virology 141 (1990) 5-16; INfetion and Immunity, 60 (1992) 742-8

Phyllis Pease, “AIDS, Cancer and Arthritis” (2005), is a cogent critique of the neglect of mycoplasmas as pathogens, inclduing in AIDS

Obviously, there are many plausible causes of AIDS. One which is not given too much credit is HHV6A, which is certainly more deadly than HIV.  Doctors Knox and Carrigan are studying it and a doctor in Texas found it in all of his AIDS patients who had died from AIDS. There are many theories as to what causes AIDS but unfortunately, there aren’t any studies being done to rule anything out or to prove that HIV is the culprit.

Why does the cause of AIDS have to be infectious? There’s little evidence that it is infectious (see Padian study, African studies that show women more likely to be positive than men etc.) and how can we even talk about the “cause of AIDS”, when AIDS is about 30 different diseases linked only by HIV. Remove HIV from the picture and there’s just 30 different diseases. Why the desire for a single cause for them?

Good point David but society is programmed to the viurs that causes AIDS, bird flu, and what ever may be lurking around the corner. I don’t have a problem with calling a severly, immune depressed person, AIDS but I agree too that maybe other factors lead and contribute this this such as, drugs, life-style habits, environmental influences,etc.

I don’t think that the term AIDS will go away because it is too big a cash cow for so many and those who are cashing in on all of this don’t want it to end.

David Crowe, I believe there may be an error in your logic. No one is suggesting that the 30 illnesses to which you refer are causing the immune depression; only that they result from it.

Henry Bauer, you are correct, Luc Montaigner, co-discoverer of HTLV-lll/LAV (HIV), believes that HIV is harmless without a mycoplasma, and that hiv could never do the things attributed to it by conventional Aidism.

HIV is indeed, very dangerous, not in itself, but rather because of what often accompanies it—mycoplasma fermentans incognitus.

I hope everyone will google: “patent 5242820” to study exactly why its discoverer, US Army employee, Shih Ching Lo, claimed that this “novel” mycoplasma could do everything which has been falsely attributed to HIV.

My proposal for the delivery of these agents to blacks, gays and drug addicts:

1. Gays by hepatitis B vaccine

2. Blacks because none or very few of us have the CCR5 32 base pair deletion which arrived in the European population as a mutation and which saved many of them from the smallpox virus, which is, like HIV a CCR5-tropic virus. This makes blacks approx. 5 times more likely to contract hiv than whites, which coincides with the statistics.

3. Users of illegal street drugs by way of contamination of the drugs.

A gay, black drug addict would therefore be a member of the group with the highest risk for HIV and AIDS.

Hello-

HEAL-NYC Hosted a Luc Montagner and Shih Ching Lo forum in NYC.  Luc distanced himself from HIV and supported a multifactorial approach to research and recommended further reasearch on Shih Ching Lo’s mycoplasma theory.

The early GRID/AIDS cases were dead in months and if you weren’t paying close attention – you might miss the iatrogenic reason for this and consider that a sexually transmitted mycoplasma—could be undermining their natural defenses.

Two problems emerged:

Both Montagner and Lo agreed that although,  “bottoms” had a greater risk of infection, mycoplasmas would be expected to be transmitted rather easily between tops and bottoms and well,those early AIDS cases were mostly showing up in bottoms, at least according to the late Michael Callen and according to what people were sharing in HEAL meetings between 1982 and 1984.

The second problem with the mycoplasma theory is the extended latancy period—both Montagner and Lo stated that mycoplasmas hit hard and fast—

In my opinion, the change from treating very sick people with high dose chemos and radiation and then high dose AZT to treating basically healthy people with lower dose combos is responsible for the seemingly extended periods between so-called infections and death…

Just think about it—Okay?

I certainly am not an expert on this subject.  But I do want to convey to all of you, including the “scientific experts”

I had a conversation with a gay man in San Fransisco in the spring of 1971.  He said that men who participated in anal sex were dying at a young age.  He said it was wideapread and that none one knew the cause. 

So, my message is”  HIV/Aids began yearsa before the “experts” say it did.

You guys need to research further.

Johndg; Have you ever heard of poppers? Amyl/Butyl nitrite inhalants, the “gay drug”, heavily and cynically marketed to gay men using euphemisms like “video head cleaners” (get the joke?). This drug facilitated anal sex and was more widely used by ‘bottoms’. It’s not the only answer, but definitely says why some gay men were getting ill. It wasn’t really being gay at all, it’s just that gay drug users choose different drugs than heterosexual drug users, so the disease patterns are different. These inhalants are both immunosuppressive and carcinogenic. And what were the first two diseases found? PCP (lung-based infection) and Kaposi’s Sarcoma (skin disorder, perhaps a cancer, often present in the face area and lungs). Michelle Cochrane’s book “Where AIDS Began” also destroys the myth of the “previously healthy gay men”. The early cases were people who had severe problems (e.g. heavy drug abuse, poverty etc.). This is well documented but, suddenly in 1984, research in this area virtually stopped. The NIDA monograph on nitrite inhalants was probably the last gasp of life from this research area. The great thing about research is that you can control the answers as much by where you prevent research as by where you do it.

Johndg, possibly gay men were dying due to drug use such as, poppers or drugs used to relax the spinchter muscle for sex. If one researches the first cases in this country, they were on both sides of the coast and in healthy males who were given Hepatitis B vaccinations. Claims have been made that these vaccinations were contaminated. However, this theory would not explain all cases amd leads me to believe that AIDS is due to many factors.

Johndg, your conversaton with that man was certainly interesting but I began to wonder about the huge increase in hiv infection after reading two studies. The first, the San Francisco City Clinic Cohort study, found that during the first six months of l978 1.8% of young gay men were hiv positive. The San Franciso Young Men’s Health Study found that between l984 and l985 50% of young gay men were hiv positive.

These estimates were obtained by the examination of blood samples from those years which had been stored. Can this huge increase really be attributed to poppers, illegal drugs, overtaxing the immune system by recurring bacterial infections in bathhouses, poppers, anal sex, or oxidative stress? Many in the rethinking aids movement believe these factors are decisive, but I’m not convinced.

This was my main motivation for reviewing the literature regarding the hepatitis B vaccine, and concluding that the link is more than coincidental.

Of course the US created AIDS!! And if you try to prove it otherwise, you are part of the conspiracy!!

Am responding to the comment that – of course the government caused AIDS. The govenment had a hand in it but not from the standpoint of Rev. Wright’s viewpoint. AIDS is more political than medical as the gays were demanding rights and acceptance into society. In the early eighties, President Reagan at first didn’t even acknowledge that there was a problem with AIDS in the gay population. Due to pressure, the government got involved and thanks to one unethical scientist, Robert Gallo, who took the work of another and thanks to Margaret Heckler, who stated that the “PROBABLE” CAUSE of AIDS had been found, all of this took off like a rocketship. The news reporters are to blame as much as anyone because they did not do their homework and instead chose to be spoonfed all of this goop. To this day, mainstream media won’t even acknowledge that there is disending views about all of this.

It was the perfect storm that has ruined so many lives and contiunes to do so to this day. HIV has never been proven to hurt a flea or to do anything else. Yet, medical care is based on this lie and other unreliable tests such as the viral load and CD4’s. AIDS has not spread into the general population as a normal virus would do. AIDS and HIV are two separate entities, however, the government has married them to each other and the rethinkers are fighting to get this investigated.

Peter Barry Chowka has an in-depth analysis of this whole issue here:
http://www.naturalhealthvillage.com/

In my above comments I outlined the work and belief of Shyh Ching Lo and Luc Montagnier that HIV required a co-factor to attain the degree of pathogenicity which would enable it to depress the human immune system and begin a syndrome leading to AIDS.

Both of these scientists discovered mycoplasma in the tissue of Aids and Kaposi’s Sarcoma patients. Shyh Ching Lo, working for the United States army, patented under number 5242820, what he called “Pathogenic Mycoplasma”, and proposed it, not only as an opportunistic infection in these diseases, but also as the causative agent.

When these researchers completed their original works in the early l990s, there was no proposed mechanism regarding how mycoplasms could attain their co-factor status.

Japanese and Chinese researchers have proposed that lipid-associated membrane proteins (LAMPS) associate with host cells in a manner that may upgrade HIV to new levels of pathogenicity.

Go here for the Japanese study: PMC 1782549. “Lipid-associated membrane proteins of Mycoplasma fermentans and M. Penetrans activate human immunodeficiency virus long-terminal repeats through toll-like receptors.”

Go here for the Chinese study and review: “Interactions between mycoplasma lipid-associated membrane proteins and the host cells.”
Journal of Zhejiang University SCIENCE B Institute of Pathogenic Biology, School of Medicine, Nanhua University, Hengyang 421001, China.

Aids is a binary weapon; the first stage is HIV.

The trigger is one of the cell-wall deficient, pleomorphic (variable) mycoplasmas. Mycoplasma Fermentans and Mycoplasma Penetrans act to upgrade an otherwise harmless retrovirus to killer status. Both of these microbes were vectored by way of vaccinations; both of them were created or upgraded in a lab and administered to specific communities. The bulk of the hundreds of billions that have been stolen by the pharmaceutical companies and medical science researchers was taken by way of the totally corrupt and sinister HIV equals AIDS paradigm for the development and administration of useless, often fatal chemotherapies and nonsensical Hiv vaccinations, including the most recent by Merk, which has finally attained its well-deserved demise. Its only effect was that it made recipients even more likely to contract Hiv.

I challenge the people who appear on this forum, David Crowe, president of Rethinking Aids, Celia Farber, who wrote that fantastic piece in Harpers, HH Bauer for his book on the failure of the HIV/AIDS paradigm, Michael Ellner, president of Heal and Sepp Hasselberger from whom I learned about the antibody tests hoax, to stop hiding from the obvious truth—that Aids is the result of biological warfare research.

The world’s best-kept secret is that these cell-wall deficient organisms also cause many, if not all CANCERS. This has been suppressed by medical science, biological warfare researchers and the cancer industry.

It may not be true that the truth will set us free—it might, in fact, result in the hiring of men in black, but I hope that Cliff Kincaid, who blames the Russians for the AIDS/biological warfare story, and the other well-known posters on this forum will use their considerable talents to expose the truth about Aids and Cancer instead of continuing to present only half of the story—that HIV does not cause AIDS.

Bacteria, not viruses, mutations, oncogenes or aneuploidy cause cancer.

The truth begins at 5242820.

Apparently the Pubmed numbers I cited for the Japanese and Chinese articles regarding the upgrading of HIV, do not always lead to the relevant articles. You can find the articles by googling the titles: 1.Lipid-associated membrane proteins of Mycoplasma fermentans and M. Penetrans activate human immunodeficiency virus long-terminal repeats through Toll-like receptors.  2.Interactions between mycoplasma lipid-associated membrane proteins and the host cells.

The number 5242820 is the number of the US Army’s patent for pathogenic mycoplasma.

I don’t think Dr. Shyh Lo ever claimed mycoplasma incognitus/penetrans caused AIDS, he didn’t find it in all AIDS patients, but what he did prove that they were pathogenic in their own right because he induced a fatal disease in mice and monkeys and ruled it to be the cause of death of several previously healthy people that died of undiagnosed infections.

AIDS seems to be a complicated disease, and people who want to blame only one agent whether it’s Drugs or HIV are suffering from Tunnel vision.

I agree with the above poster, its Mycoplasma that was probably the bioweapon, here is the peer reviewed evidence.

Histopathology and doxycycline treatment in a previously healthy non-AIDS patient systemically infected by Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain).
Lo SC, Buchholz CL, Wear DJ, Hohm RC, Marty AM.

Department of Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Pathology, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, D.C. 20306-6000.

The newly recognized human pathogenic mycoplasma M. fermentans (incognitus strain) causes a fatal systemic infection in experimental monkeys, infects patients with AIDS, and apparently is associated with a fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. An apparently immunocompetent male who lacked evidence of HIV infection developed fever, malaise, progressive weight loss, and diarrhea and had extensive tissue necrosis involving liver and spleen. M. fermentans (incognitus strain) was centered at the advancing margins of these necrotizing lesions. Following the treatment of 300 mg doxycycline per day for 6 weeks, he recovered fully. He has no fever or diarrhea, and his abnormal liver function tests have returned to normal. He regained all lost strength and 14 kg of lost weight and has remained disease free for more than 1 year.

PMID: 1788266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This is what the Nicolsons found in many GWI/CFS patients, and when they found it in sick vets armed agents from the DOD threatened them to stop thier research and their boss Dr. Fred Conrad was shot in the head right after he told them it was part of the bioweapons program. I don’t think they would lie about that, here is their barely fictionilized book. What hell they went through at the MD cancer center where they worked is unbeleivable. A nobel Laurete in medicine Dr. Roger Guilemann has given it a good review along with other scientists.

http://www.projectdaylily.com/

Hi Ive seen the Film Hiv fact or fraud, and was very impressed with Duesberg’s debunking of HIV. In his book “Inventing the AIDS Virus” he quickly dissmisses Dr. Shyh Ching Lo’s mycoplasma incognitus hypothesis, which I disagree with. Dr. Lo never claimed his mycoplasmas caused AIDS, rather because he induced a fatal wasting disease in mice and monkeys and he clearly ruled it to be the cause of death of 6 HIV negative people that suddenly died of an undiagnosed infection that they were pathenogenic to humans. I know he didnt find Mycoplasma in 100% of AIDS patients, he seemed to embrace the multifactorial hypothesis. I agree with him that mycoplasmas are pathenogenic in their own right, and he also felt (at least back then) that HIV was benign. Lo’s hypothesis was not that mycoplasmas cause AIDS, rather that mycoplasma incognitus was pathenogenic in their own right, and subset of AIDS patients are infected with a pathengenic mycoplasma. It is easy to understand how AZT poisoning, hard drug use, and a mycoplasma can cause similar symptoms and be ruled as the same disease, when they are really different diseases masquerading as one another. Here is some of Lo’s work and some of my comments. First here are details of the 6 deaths that clearly show mycoplasmas are pathenogenic in thier own right.

EXAMPLE 21
M. fermentans incognitus Identified In Non-AIDS Patients
Six patients from six different geographic areas who presented with acute
flu-like ilnesses were studied. The patients developed persistent fevers,
lymphadenopathy or diarrhea, pneumonia, and/or heart, liver, or adrenal
failure. They all died in 1-7 weeks.
These patients had no serological evidence of HIV infection and could not
be classified as AIDS patients according to CDC criteria. The clinical
signs as well as laboratory and pathological studies of these patients
suggested an active infectious process, although no etiological agent was
found despite extensive infectious disease work-ups during their
hospitalization.
Post-mortem examinations showed histopathological lesions of fulminant
necrosis involving the lymph nodes, spleen, lungs, liver, adrenal glands,
heart, and/or brain. No viral inclusion cells, bacteria, fungi, or
parasites could be identified in these tissues using special tissue stains.
However, the use of rabbit antiserum and the monoclonal antibodies raised
against M. fermentans incognitus (Example 8), the pathogen shown to cause
fatal systemic infection in primates (Example 10), revealed M. fermentans
incognitus antigens in these necrotizing lesions. In situ hybridization
using a .sup.35 S labeled M. fermentans incognitus-specific DNA probe
(Example 18) also detected M. fermentans incognitus genetic material in the
areas of necrosis.
Furthermore, M. fermentans incognitus particles were identified
ultrastructurally in these histopathological lesions. M. fermentans
incognitus was associated with the systemic necrotizing lesions in these
previously healthly non-AIDS patients with an acute fatal disease.
Typical areas of necrosis due to the M. fermentans incognitus infection of
these patients are shown in FIG. 21. Most of the tissues which had massive
necrosis showed only minimal lymphocytic or histiocytic response and few
neutrophils (FIGS. 21A, B and C). FIG. 21A is a photomicrograph of splenic
tissue (x 30.5). FIG. 21B shows the peripheral margin of necrosis of 21A (x
153). FIG. 21C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 15.25).
Occasionally, a chronic or acute inflammatory reaction could be identified
in the areas of necrosis (FIG. 21D). FIG. 21D is a photomicrograph of
adrenal gland tissue (x 153).
Representative samples of the immunostained tissues of these patients are
shown in FIGS. 22A-D. FIG. 22A is a photomicrograph of spleen tissue (x
80). FIG. 22B is a higher magnification of the margin of necrosis of 22A (x
353). FIG. 22C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 257). FIG. 22D
is a higher magnification of cells with positive cytoplasmic staining of
22C (x 706). FIG. 22E is a photomicrograph of hemorrhagic necrosis in
adrenal gland tissue (x 706). The areas which displayed the highest
concentration of M. fermentans incognitus related antigens were often at
the margin of necrosis.
However, the necrotic center and peripheral unaffected areas had relatively
low reactivity. Most of the positively stained cells were identified as
lymphocytes or histiocytes in the lymph nodes and spleen, or reactive
mononuclear cells in the liver, lungs, adrenal glands and heart.
Immunostaining of control tissues with necrotizing lesions from patients
with cat scratch disease, Hodgkin’s disease, malignant lymphoma,
cryptococcal fungal infections and hemorrhagic splenic tissues of Hairy
cell leukemia did not display a positive reaction. Serum obtained from the
same rabbit before immunizaiton with M. fermentans incognitus antigens also
failed to display a positive immunoreaction in the necrotizing lesions of
the six patients.
Using a .sup.35 S radiolabeled psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA probe
(Example 18), strong labeling of clusters of cells at the margins of
necrosis of the affected tissues was observed. The affected tissues tested
were formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded spleen, lung, lymph node, adrenal
gland liver and bone marrow. The intensity of the labeling, or the number
of grains localized in the cells at the margin of necrosis was well above
the level present at either the necrosis (FIGS. 23A and B). However, there
were also clusters of apparently viable cells in the necrosis which were
also strongly labeled (FIG. 23C). FIG. 23A shows strong labeling of cells
at the peripheral zone of necrosis (x 76.5). FIG. 23B is a higher
magnification of 23A (x 422). FIG. 23C shows the occasional positive
labeling in an area of diffuse necrosis in the spleen (x 150). The inset of
23C is a higher magnification (x 422).
Formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded liver and spleen tissues from a patient
with pancreatic carcinoma were used as negative controls, and showed no
labeling above background levels. A control probe of .sup.35 S labeled
cloning vector DNA, not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA did
not label any of the tested tissues (FIG. 23D). FIG. 23D is the same area
of FIG. 23C in the consecutive tissue section, hybridized with .sup.35 S
labeled cloning vector DNA not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus
DNA (x 150) (i.e., control for 23C).
Areas of the necrotizing lesions which immunostained most positively for M.
fermentans incognitus specific antigens were examined by electromicroscopy.
Particles with characteristic ultrastructural features of M. fermentans
incognitus were directly identified in all the lesions. These particles in
the areas of necrosis, morphologically resembled M. fermentans incognitus
previously identified in Sb51 cells (Example 4) and in the tissues of
experimentally inoculated monkeys (Example 10). The particles were
heterogeneous in size and shape, with most particles being spherical and
about 140 to 280 nm in diameter. At the margin of necrosis, the M.
fermentans incognitus particles were located in the cytoplasm of cells with
apparently no cytopathic changes, or in fragments of cytoplasm from
completely disrupted cells (FIG. 24). FIG. 24 shows electron mircographs of
tissues derived from areas highly positive for M. fermentans
incognitus-specific antigens. FIG. 24A is an electron micrograph at a
margin of necrosis in adrenal gland tissues (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24A.sub.2
is a higher magnification of 24A (Bar=100 nm). FIGS. 24B.sub.1, and B.sub.2
are electron micrographs of the peripheral zone of necrosis in lymph node
tissue (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24B.sub.3 is a higher magnification of
24B.sub.2 (Bar=100 nm).
Table 5, below, summarizes the profiles and histopathological findings for
each of the six patients.
TABLE 5
__________________________________________________________________________
Summary of Patient’s Profiles and Histopathological Findings
Tissue with necrotic
Duration
lesions identified
Personal
Salient clinical of illness by biopsy or at Patient
Profiles presentation (weeks) autopsy
__________________________________________________________________________
1 29-year old
arthralgia, myalgia, conjunc-
4.5 spleen, lung
black man
tivitis, persistent fever,
hypercalcemia, liver failure
(late), ARDs* (late)
2 33-year old
persistent fever, diarrhea,
7 lymph nodes, liver,
white woman
generalized lymphadenopathy,
spleen, kidneys
abnormal liver functions,
seizure (late)
3 40-year old
arthralgia, myalgia, sore
3.5 adrenal glands
white man
throat, chest pain, persis-
(bilateral), heart,
tent fever, malaise, diarrhea,
brain
finger numbness, comatose
(late)
4 31-year old
vomiting and diarrhea, tremor,
1.5 liver, spleen
black woman
fever, epigastric and chest
pain, abnormal liver functions,
headache
5 23-year old
Watery diarrhea, vomiting,
3 liver, heart
white man
jaundice, arthralgia, myalgia
6 33-year old
fever, malaise, nausea and
1 spleen, liver
black man
vomiting, myalgia and weakness,
liver failure and jaundice,
confusion and hallucinations
(late)
__________________________________________________________________________
*ARDS Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome

Lo SC; Dawson MS; Newton PB 3rd; Sonoda MA; Shih JW; Engler WF; Wang RY; Wear DJ. Association of the virus-like infectious agent originally reported in patients with AIDS with acute fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, September 1989, volume 41, number 3, pages 364-376.

I don’t believe that Dr. Lo ever wrote bluntly that M.fermentans and M.Penetrans cause Aids in the absence of Hiv. However it is clear that he felt that Hiv was definitely not the causative agent in the absence of another pathogen.

From Lo’s patent for Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus (5242820): “The human retroviruses have not fulfulled Koch’s Postulates re. producing transmissable AIDS-Like diseases in experimental animals.”

Supportive of my theory that Hiv acts in conjunction with one or both mycoplasmas to comprise a biowarfare “binary weapon,” Lo wrote this in the abstract to his PubMed-published study entitled: “Enhancement of HIV-1 cytocidal effects in CD4+ lymphocytes by AIDS-associated Mycoplasma.”

“Coinfection with Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain) enhances the ability of HIV-1 to induce cytopathic effects on human T-lymphocytes in vitro. The modification of the biological properties of HIV-1 by coinfection with mycoplasma may be involved in the pathogenesis of AIDS.”

In another study entitled: “High frequency of antibodies to Mycoplasma Penetrans in HIV-infected patients.”

From the abstract: “M.Penetrans, apparently not a commensal and not a simple opportunist, is uniquely associated with HIV-infection and Aids.”

I don’t recall that either scientist, Montagnier or Lo, has recanted his belief that mycoplasmas act as co-factors with Hiv as the causative agents of AIDS.

Perhaps one or both of these scientists will join this forum and present their current beliefs on the relationship of M.Fermentans and M.Penetrans to the pathogenesis of AIDS.

Perhaps Shyh Ching Lo will explain exactly why he patented M.Fermentans Incognitus for the US Army, and whether it is indeed a biological weapon—and if it is not, what exactly was the US army’s interest in M.Fermentans Incognitus?

To the poster who self-identifies as “S”: I find it interesting that you have posted a link to Garth and Nancy Nicolson’s book, “Project Day Lily,” yet you are claiming that Lo did not believe that M.fermentans Incognitus causes Aids.

The Nicolson’s expose has as its main theme that Hiv is, in fact, the “false flag” that I claim it to be, and that it is really the mycoplasma that is the killing pathogen.

Project Day Lily is a fictionalized account of the creation and coverup of a biological weapon identified in the book as a mycoplasma. The Nicolsons claim to have used a fictionalized account in order to project themselves from certain forces and agencies which would not appreciate their exposition of the role of mycoplasmas as agents of biological warfare.

Garth and Nancy Nicolson, two of the world’s foremost researchers of mycoplasmas, best known for finding and treating mycoplasma infection in Gulf War soldiers, and who wrote the book, use the name, Dr. Lon, in place of Dr. Shyh Ching Lo, who received the patent for M.fermentans Incognitus. (5242820).

From the book:

“Dr. Richard Armwhite, the egocentric general officer, interrupted Dr. Lon. “Oh come off it, Dr. Long. Don’t tell me you’re going soft on us. Besides, it’s not as if it’s a virus that cannot be treated with antibiotics.” Dr. Armwhite continued, “It’s not HIV, you know.” Dr. Lon sarcastically answered, “No, It’s worse.” He paused again and then continued, “You’ve got to know that this is probably the true killer in HIV-AiDS. My lab has found this in 80% of AIDS patients, and it is especially high in the late stages of the disease. This is what is really killing the HIV-infected people, not the HIV virus.”

General Armwhite looked at Dr. Lon and became highly irritated. “I am warning you, Dr. Lon….You know damn well that officially it is HIV that causes AIDS, and that’s how it’s going to stay. It just got out of hand in Africa, you know, and no one cared about those fags in New York anyway. They will never find out that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS without the mycoplasma infection.”

This is a fictionalized account, but I believe that anyone who is not deluded by the Duesbergian theory of street-drugs-and poppers/Aids, and who has an independent mind and a serious understanding of the history of AIDS, and not beholden to any intellectual tribalism, will eventually come to the conclusion that Aids is a man-made illness.

To “S” and fellow Aids rethinkers.

I emailed Garth Nicolson on June 21 to let him know that I have quoted from his novel, Project Day Lily, and to invite him to join this forum. He replied that he has other duties but agreed to answer my question regarding the roles of HIV and Mycoplasmas in AIDS.

From Professor Nicolson’s email:

“…Luc Montagnier…proposed that HIV-1 required a cofactor (co-infection) to progress to AIDS. In this case, the proposed co-infection was a pathogenic Mycoplasma, such as Mycoplasma fermentans…but we now know that other intracellular bacterial infections (such as Borrelia burgdorgferi) can probably suffice as well. The reason for the co-factor hypothesis was that HIV-1 alone does not cause major signs/symptoms by itself—however, it can partially destroy the immune system that protects against infections that can cause illness…”

“The infections by Mycoplasma species are systemic and involve practically all major organs and tissues, causing a variety of nonspecific symptoms. They are also very slow-growing and they slowly invade tissues and spread in the body.”

Progessor Nicolson also sent me a copy of his recent article, “Chronic Bacterial and Viral Infection in Neurodegenerative and Neurobehavioral Diseases.” Included in his review of the literature on this subject are Amyotrophic Lateral Sclerosis, Multiple Sclerosis, Alzheimers’s Disease, Parkinson’s Disease, Autism Spectrum Disorders, Lyme Disease and Chronic Fatique Syndrome.

I believe that it is essential to note that the microbes which Professor Nicolson proposes as co-factors in AIDS—M.fermentans and Borellia burgdorferi—have been implicated in biological warfare.

To this list of microbe-related diseases I would add glaucoma in view of the recent discovery by Greek scientists that there is a very significant association between the presence of H.pylori and the occurrence of glaucoma. In fact, the link is so persuasive that the authors conclude that the chance of the association being merely random are less than one in one thousand. See: Helicobacter pylori and glaucoma. Volume 110, Issue 12, Pages 2433-2424 December, 2003) in the journal, Ophthalmology, or online.

Because the optic nerve is an extension of the brain, it is very likely that glaucoma and Alzheimer’s Disease share a common etiology, which may be the developement of amyloid plaques initiated by bacterially-derived apoptosis of optic neurons. Intraocular pressure, which has been wrongly identified as a causative factor in glaucoma, is merely of epiphenomenal association, and is used as a diagnostic baseline from which to prescribe dangerous and useless intraocular-pressure-lowering drugs. It is now known that approximately fifty percent of glaucoma patients have normal or near normal intraocular pressure, therefore the claimed causal relationship is more efficacious in deriving massive profits than it is for reducing the effects of glaucoma.

It has also been clinically proven that the effects of glaucoma can be successfully treated by the eradication of H.Pylori. See: “Eradicating H.pylor Infection Improves Glaucoma,” by Aaron W. Jensen, Ph.D.

From Doctor Jenson’s article: “Even more surprisingly, it now turns out that this malicious little organism may also be involved in the pathology of the eye—specifically, glaucoma”

Bacteria have also been linked to a certain type of lymphoma of the eye. See: “Antibiotic Doxycycline Successfully Treats Eye Lymphoma.”

The knowledge that bacteria are responsible for many diseases of supposedly unknown origin, including cancer, Aids, arthritis and all of the so-called autoimmune diseases, has been suppressed by   medical science, pharmaceutical and Mainstream Media.

Except HIV is a figment – An imaginary virus that has never been isolated.

Political constructs do not have viral causes!

Welcome back to the discussion, Michael Ellner.

I believe that I can construct a satisfactory response to your comment: “Except HIV is a figment-An imaginary virus that has never been isolated.”

But first I would like to ask you a question.

The use of the word, “except” suggests to me that you might accept all, or at least part, of my thesis that Aids is a man-made disease, purposefully targeted against certain segments of the population—gays, blacks and drug addicts. Or, if the targeting was not intentionally genocidal as a population-reducing device, the microbes were vectored by way of vaccinations in order to test biological weapons. And further, that “HIV” (whatever it is), was vectored as the harmless “false flag” pathogen while other agents, Mycoplasma fermentans, mycoplasma penetrans and Borrelia Burgdorferi were vectored as the deadly pathogens.

Will you clarify your position on this issue? I believe that in order to understand exactly what so-called HIV is, and whether it actually exists as a virus, it is necessary to understand exactly how the entity known as HIV came into existence.

I believe we are dealing with genocide – gay men, non-whites and the very poor are being socially isolated and medically murdered under the cloak of HIV/AIDS.

In my opinion these crimes against humanity involve chemo/psychological-warfare and not bio-warfare.

The lumping of the various health challenges of these high risk social health groups under the banner of a sexually transmitted CD4 deficiency syndrome was a hoax, designed to discourage sex, save the failing cancer industry and justify the need for funding the Public Health Service…

If public health officials lied about who is at risk and why—(They did!)  Why should we believe anything they tell us.

“AIDS FIGHT IS SKEWED BY FEDERAL CAMPAIGN EXAGGERATING RISKS
Most Heterosexuals Face Scant Peril but Receive Large Portion of Funds”, May 1, 1996 Wall Street Journal Page 1 and entire inside Page A6

I do not believe there is any merit in the bio-warfare theory because:

1. The CD4-deficiency causes AIDS theory has been profoundly discredited
2. Testing positive on any antibody test is not proof of an active infection
3. The sexual transmission of AIDS has been profoundly discredited
The research is clear the life-extending treatments actually shorten lives

the best work on mycoplasma incognitus was done by Lo et al at the Armed forces of pathology, I posted their studies above where they clearly proved them to be capable of killing previously healthy people and primates where mycoplasma incognitus were identified in the damaged tissues by EM and no other microbe. 

Yes I agree with Duesberg and Lo that hiv is harmless, yet Dr. Lo was the only one with the correct hypothesis, hiv is harmless and mycoplasma incognitus is pathogenic to humans in their own right.  The rethinkers need to realize they are making huge mistake when following Duesberg, hes right about HIV, but wrong about Mycoplasma being harmless.

No one is suggesting that mycoplasmae are not harmless. I am not convinced that they cause AIDS. If they do, how has such a select group of the population been exposed to them? I think that Duesberg’s hypothesis has some merit, however, their may be other co-factors and health habits that enter into the equation. I think that we all might agree that these people have low immunity. It boggles my mind that no studies are being done with all of the funds available to prove or disprove this. They don’t want to know the truth as their funding would cease to exist.

Yes, the correct hypothesis is that AIDS cannot be reduced to a single agent, be it HIV, Mycoplasmas, AZT, severe drug abuse, AIDS is really a complicated set of different diseases under one misleading umbrella. Im sure many of these different factors play a role depending on the individual case.

Yet since Lo et al ruled mycoplasma to be the cause of death of several previously healthy adults who suddenly died in 1-7 weeks of an infection, where mycoplasma incognitus was found by EM rotting every organ and no other microbe, and also induced a fatal wasting disease in primates, it seems that this microbe is pathogenic in its own right, unlike HIV.  (References above)

Also this microbe was found rotting the organs of many AIDS patients, so while Lo et al did not find it in all cases, it certainly plays a role in some AIDS cases.

“S”, you have written, regarding Shyh Ching Lo’s position on the origin of AIDS: “…he seemed to embrace the multifactorial hypothesis.”

Will you please present a quotation from Lo’s body of work which gives you this impression? I have been searching in vain. I think if you have read his comments in the patent for M.fermentans Incognitus, you will understand that Lo believed that this “novel,” “pathogenic mycoplasma” was a much better candidate as an immune system destroyer than HIV.

Michael Ellner, you write, apparently to supply evidence that HIV is not a man-made virus:

“I do not believe there is any merit in the biowarfare theory because…”

1. CD4 deficiency…disproved.
2. testing positive is not proof of active infection.
3. sexual transmission has been discredited.

While I agree with all of these assertions, I must suggest that whether they are true or false, has nothing to do with whether HIV is a man-made, synthetic retrovirus, or that AIDS was developed using biowarfare technology.

Here’s my evidence that HIV exists, not as a naturally-occuring entitiy, but rather, as one constucted in a lab.

First: Google “Latent Viruses and Mutated Oncogenes—No Evidence for Pathogenesis: by Peter Duesberg, and find Chapter IV, Section A, entitled: “Mutated Proto-myc Genes and Burkitt’s Lymphoma. In the fourth paragraph from the title you will find this sentence:

“In efforts to develope a system that is more efficient than transfection for introducing mutated proto-myc genes into cells or animals, synthetic retroviruses with the coding region of the human proto-myc gene were constructed.”

I believe that these “synthetic retroviruses” were created by the prototechnology which also allowed the creation of so-called HIV, and also that Peter Duesberg was involved in the development of this technology.

Here are patents for two synthetic viruses:

U.S. Patent 4859587. From the patent: “Recombinant herpes simples viruses.”

“Methods of preparing recombinant viruses, vaccines, incorporating the viruses and methods of immunizing a human host by innoculation with the vaccines are disclosed.”

Also: US Patent 6846670

From the patent: “Genetically engineered herpes virus for the treatment of cardiovascular disease.”

May we now initially agree that scientists have constructed synthetic viruses?

I am saying that just because scientists are able to construct synthetic viruses does not prove that they have constructed a “stealth” virus that is selectively infecting gay men, IVDUs, crack abusers and very poor non-white people.

AIDS is a political/medical construct and social constructs do not have synthetic viral causes…

If we pay very close attention to the social dynamics: What are the actual health risks of the people who are actually getting sick, the infectious AIDS mythology falls apart…

In my opinion, the murderous AIDS fraud was made possible early on by the unquestioned act of lumping together the unrelated health challenges found in a subset of drug using gay men, IV-drug users, blood product recipients and the very poor. When you put them all together and claim that a new infectious agent is making them sick—it sure can look like an infectious syndrome –

The only thing linking these early “AIDS” cases were low CD4 counts and the evidence is in … CD4 cells have been profoundly discredited as a meaningful marker of health or illness and the so-called “Deficiency” could have been the result of their infections or multi-substance abuse, instead of the cause of their health problems.

One more thing, as I said, I hung out with Luc Montagnier and Shih Ching Lo in NYC for several days before and after a forum that HEAL sponsored on the subject of the possible role of mycoplasma in AIDS—Both agreed that AIDS was multi-factorial and doubted that any single agent could be the “cause”.

Michael Ellner, besides the apparent conversation between you, Montagnier and Lo, could you please supply us with any published comments by them which support your assertion that “both agreed that AIDS was multi-factorial and doubted that any single agent could be the “cause.”

I have never found anything in the published works of Lo or Montagnier to support a “multifactorial” cause for AIDS.

I am sure that if these gentlemen truly believed this it would be possible to find it in their published works. Such a thing would be difficult for them NOT to mention in their many published works and studies.

As you might be aware, Montagnier, along with Robert Gallo, was happy to accept President Reagan’s peacemaking in the controversy over which one of them had discovered the cause of Aids, so-called HIV.

In case you are responding to my comments, I have never claimed that HIV is a “stealth” virus. I’ve repeated several times on this forum that I believe that HIV is completely benign and harmless, and certainly has never been used to target anyone, gay, drug-addicted or poor.

My theory is that HIV is a “false flag” and various mycoplasmas—fermentans and penetrans—and perhaps the Lyme Disease bacteria, Borrelia Burgdorferi, are the true immune system destroyers.

And I believe that the cobbled-together proteins and gene products known as HIV were obviously constructed in a lab and are used as the backbone of the phony HIV causes Aids paradigm.

And that Lo’s “pathogenic mycoplasma” for which the United States Army has the patent, was developed as an agent of biological warfare.

Montagnier apparently came to believe that HIV was harmless unless it was accompanied by a mycoplasma, which he considered a co-factor.

For Montagnier to have accepted a multifactorial cause of AIDS would have meant that he had disavowed his own claim to have discovered the Aids virus, so-called HIV. To my knowledge, he has not done this or returned the royalty money he has received from his “discovery.”

He has never written that he believes in the Duesberg/Crowe street drugs/ bath houses/  poppers, multifactorial hypothesis. Although we all understand that AZT and other DNA chain terminators, nucleoside and nonnucleoside reverse transcriptase inhibitors and various protease inhibitors have killed thousands.

I believe that you are incorrect about this but would be happy to admit that I’m wrong if you can supply quotations from the works of Montagnier or Lo which support a multifactorial cause of AIDS.

Sources, please.

Truman Green wrote: I believe that you are incorrect about this but would be happy to admit that I’m wrong if you can supply quotations from the works of Montagnier or Lo which support a multifactorial cause of AIDS.

Michael Ellner – Responded:
Here are the quotes you asked for -

I think we should put the same weight now on the co-factors as we have on HIV.

Luc Montagnier

AIDS does not inevitably lead to death, especially if you suppress the co-factors that support the disease. It is very important to tell this to people who are infected.

Luc Montagnier

Another interesting field, which is my own, is cofactors, not only to the disease but also to transmission. I am still puzzled by the fact that you get more sexual transmission in some ethnic populations. One way to answer this is to look for genetic factors.
Luc Montagnier

All of the above quotes are from:
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/l/luc_montagnier.ht

Consider this: All flags including “false” and “red” flags are nothing more than symbols—HIV is a figment! HIV is an imaginary monster – It is the actual health risks of the people developing the opportunistic diseases that are called AIDS and the overall mass self-hypnosis that is driving the “epidemic”

Note: If you missed the 7/11 edition of the Caldwell Chronicals and would like to hear it—You can!
The show starts at 3pm and runs to 5pm. FYI- Prof. Bauer, Dr Rodney Richards, Curtis Cost and I joined the program at 3:40pm.
The show is archived at http://archive.wbai.org  and is available for download.

Co-factors:

These are extracts from my review (published in the Journal of Scientific Exploration, 19 #3 (2005) 413—419) of the memoirs of Gallo and of Montagnier:

Virus Hunting: AIDS, Cancer, and the Human Retrovirus : a Story of Scientific Discovery, by Robert Gallo, BasicBooks, 1991.
Virus: The Co-Discoverer of HIV Tracks Its Rampage and Charts the Future, by Luc Montagnier, W. W. Norton, 2000 (translated by Stephen Sartarelli from the French,  Des virus et des hommes, Editions Odile Jacob, 1994; parts of the text updated to 1998).

Contradicting much of what Montagnier says elsewhere in the book is his conviction that HIV alone is no serious threat to health, that it requires some as-yet-unknown co-factor to lead from HIV infection to AIDS, most likely the mycoplasma that Montagnier’s group has isolated from a number of AIDS patients (pp. 124, 169—178, 183 ff.).

Gallo has never publicly admitted in plain words that HIV is not the necessary and sufficient cause of AIDS; in his book, he “presents the irrefutable evidence that HIV causes AIDS (chapter 15)” (p.7). Yet at several places he acknowledges that infection by HIV (p. 199) and progression to AIDS (pp. 252—252) depend on some co-factor, possibly certain venereal diseases (p. 199) or a new human herpes virus (p. 252), perhaps HHV-6 (pp. 254—255); the HTLVs that Gallo himself had earlier discovered being “the only known specific co-factors for AIDS” (p. 248, emphasis in original). He insists that HIV is the sine qua non, that AIDS will still occur without co-factors, it will “probably just take longer”, and he dismisses as “unlikely” Montagnier’s belief that a mycoplasma is responsible for the depletion of T4 cells that produces AIDS (p. 297). On the other hand, he also writes that “If not all HIV-infected people develop AIDS (and that is a possibility)” (p. 302)

This is my short ansnwer – My long answer is being moderated-

The L.M. quotes below speak for themselves

“I think we should put the same weight now on the co-factors as we have on HIV. “

“AIDS does not inevitably lead to death, especially if you suppress the co-factors that support the disease. It is very important to tell this to people who are infected.”

“AIDS does not inevitably lead to death, especially if you suppress the co-factors that support the disease. It is very important to tell this to people who are infected.”

“Another interesting field, which is my own, is cofactors, not only to the disease but also to transmission. I am still puzzled by the fact that you get more sexual transmission in some ethnic populations. One way to answer this is to look for genetic factors.”

Feel free to type Luc Montagnier and co-factors into your browsers to authenticate the above quotes

I highly recommend visiting the WBAI (Pacifica) website and downloading Earl Caldwell’s 7/11/08 broadcast—The HIV/AIDS segment begins 40 minutes into his show-

Very interesting.

Michael Ellner, Luc Montagnier considered the mycoplasmas or other microbes to be co-factors, by which he specifically meant other microbes which could upgrade HIV from a benign to a killer status. This upgrading comprised Montagnier’s “co-factor” hypothesis. It is entirely distinct from the Crowe/Duesberg “multifactorial” hypothesis.

This belief in an HIV upgrader does not represent the “multi-factorial” cause of Aids, which you and Mr. Bauer, and Mr. Crowe have been supporting on this forum. As you know the multifactorial hypothesis claims that Aids is not caused by a microbe which, by itself, destroys the immune system, such is claimed for HIV, but by factors such as lifestyle, multi-bacterial infections picked up by gays in bathhouses, which overwhelm the immune system, inhaling poppers, street drugs such as cocaine, meth and heroin and including the antiretrovirals, as they came on stream in the nineties.

I found your quote on a quotation website, without any reference to its source. Unless you supply some sources for it, is it not logical for me to assume that you found it on the same website and don’t really know its derivation? It was taken completely out of context and presented here to support your claim that Montagnier supported the “multifactorial” origin of Aids.

It would not occur to most serious people to support their ideas by going to quotation websites without any understanding of the origin or context of the quote.

Will you please supply us with the exact reference, that is, publication from which the quote was taken so we may assess the context and discover Montagnier’s understanding of the existence of co-factors?

Montagnier’s quote regarding ethnicity was similar to Mr. Bauer’s recognition of the fact that HIV seems to be able to read the DNA of the person with whom it comes into contact, which results in black people being much more susceptible to infection.

Less than two years ago it was discovered that alleles are not inherited, one from each parent, as it has always been assumed. Some alleles are inherited in clusters. What this means is that,  if lymphocyte receptors are among the cells that are inherited assymetrically, it is very possible that black people, who always possess receptors such as CCR5 and others, will be several times more likely to become infected with HIV than Caucasian people, and not just in the slight discrepancy that had been theorized earlier.

In the quote which you presented, Montagnier was apparently speculating about co-receptors as factors determining which ethnic group will become more easily infected. This is an epidemiologic finding as opposed to an etiologic finding, which is the context of Montagnier’s co-factor hypothesis.

I’d like to ask you also if Montagnier agreed with your assessment that “Hiv is a figment—an imaginary virus,” as you have written on this forum? Perhaps he let you know his feeling on this as you were engaging in conversation while you “hung out.”

So far, all of those whose works I have studied, who believe that HIV does not exist, also believe in the “multifactorial” cause of AIDS.

Since, not one HIV test has been approved for diagnosing an HIV infection—It seems to me that the burden of proof is yours—

Why do you believe any one is infected with a HI-virus?

Michael Ellner, I’m very surprised that you continue to believe that I think HIV is a dangerous pathogen. I’ve stated my belief that it is harmless many times on this forum.

In all due respect, which is considerable, is it not appropriate for me to wonder if you are using the “strawman” mechanism?—wrongly attributing beliefs to an opponent in a discussion or debate?

In my first comment on this forum I stated that I believe HIV is a “false flag” conglomeration of proteins and gene products—an invented virus-developed in a lab and used to conceal the real AIDS pathogens, which would be readily discovered to be derived from biological warfare efforts. As my initial evidence I presented the patent 5242820, owned by the US government. The patent is for a “novel” pathogenic mycoplasma. Lo found it in many of the body tissues and organs of AIDS patients. Garth Nicolson discovered mycoplasmas in the tissues of Gulf War Syndrome victims. Both men concluded that this pathogen is not merely commensal or opportunistic but appears to have causative capabilities.

Therefore your question: “Why do you believe any one is infected with a HI-virus?” does not apply as I have never written that I believe this.

Have you been to the patent website and studied Lo’s patent application for M.Fermentans Incognitus? He proposes it as a likely candidate for the causative agent in AIDS and explains that HIV does not satisfy KOCH’s postulates.

Maybe there are two Truman Greens posting?

=============
On Jul 12, 2008, at 11:24 PM,  Truman Green wrote:

Therefore your question: “Why do you believe any one is infected with a HI-virus?” does not apply as I have never written that I believe this.”

On Jun 11, 2008, at 11:12 PM, #33 Truman Green wrote:
“Aids is a binary weapon; the first stage is HIV.”
======================================

Or, maybe the above poster misappropriated your screen name?

Mr Truman—Are you now, suggesting that Mycoplasmas which are stage 2 of your bio-warfare model are so mystical that stage 1 is not necessary?
——————————————————————
On Jun 21 at 2:30 am #36 , Quoting Dr Lo. – Truman Green wrote:
“The human retroviruses have not fulfulled Koch’s Postulates re. producing transmissable AIDS-Like diseases in experimental animals.”
——————————————————————-
Funny, how both Dr Lo and Truman refuse or are unable to notice that mycoplasmas violate Koch’s postulates as well, as it they are not found in all AIDS cases.

As far as having a “stage name,” Mr. Ellner, you may verify my identity by looking my name up in the online directory at Telus.com at Surrey British Columbia, or by coming to my residence on the King George Highway in Surrey BC, or you can contact David Crowe with whom I have had at least fifty email exchanges on this issue.

Truman Green is my real name and if you would like to use “Mr.” in addressing me, I imagine that you understand that it would be “Mr.Green” and not “Mr. Truman.”

The quotation from Lo is copied from his patent number 5242820. Have you read it? He states that “The human retroviruses have not fulfilled Koch’s Postulates re. producing transmissable AIDS-like diseases in experimental animals.”
The point he is making is that in this singular condition of Koch’s Postulates—the ability to produce disease in experimental animals—HIV has failed the test. HOWEVER! Mycoplasmas are known to produce fatal disease in experimental animals. “S”, has posted sources which verify this on this forum. Lo has done a study in which he injected non-human primates with mycoplasmas. These animals died within several months, while the control animals remained healthy.

You have moved the goal posts to include whether mycoplasmas have been found in all cases of AIDS. The key words in Lo’s statement are “re. producing transmissible AIDS-like disease…” Neither I nor Lo has claimed that mycoplasma has been found in all cases of AIDS. I believe that so-called HIV, the man-made synthetic virus-like structure, was vectored together with other pathogens—mycoplasmas—in the original hepatitis B vaccines which were targeted at young gay homosexuals in Manhattan, New York, Los Angeles and San Francisco. As stage one of a binary weapon, so-called HIV is not required to be a deadly, or even disease-causing pathogen.

I also believe that both Montagnier and Gallo “discovered” this synthesis of recombined viral proteins because they knew they were there, and that they were part of the original conspiracy to test these biowarfare products on certain segments of the American population, gays, blacks and injection drug users.

In order for HIV to play its role in the conspiracy as stage one of a binary weapon, it was not necessasry for it to be a deadly pathogen, only that it was identified as the causative agent, and that antibody tests be developed to identify it. 

The original cases of fatal immunodepression, in which young gay men died quickly, were caused by the mycoplasmas but HIV was wrongly identified as the causative agent. However, you have correctly identified an aspect of the Aids hoax about which I have not been completely certain—whether HIV has any pathogenic capacity whatsoever—even being capable of creating temporary flu-like symptoms—as the believers in conventional HIV/AIDS theory seem to believe.

I have presented two studies in early posts in which Chinese and Japanese researchers developed hypotheses regarding how mycoplasmas are able to upgrade the replication of HIV, thereby making it a more dangerous microbe. These studies are in support of the apparent hypothesis of Luc Montagnier who claims to believe that HIV requires a co-factor in order to destroy the human immune system.

In my next post I will present evidence that adventitious contamination of vaccines has been admitted by the CDC.

Mr Green,

You are entitled to your opinion sir –

The goal post was Koch’s postulates—the deal is you have meet all of them to put forward your causative agent(s)

Like it or not, Mycoplasmas fail the test!

Vaccines are a serious risk for testing positive on all of the non-specific “HIV”-antibody tests and we don’t need an HIV to conclude that vaccines can be hazardous to our health…

The requirement to satisfy all of Koch’s Postulates is a requirement of the conventional HIV/AIDS rethinkers, not mine nor Lo’s. That being said, I think if you review the literature—-especially the findings of Garth Nicolson—you will find that mycoplasmas are very difficult to find in vivo, and they are also pleomorphic. Whether they are found or not does not absolutely bear on whether they are present.

Mycoplasmas, as you claim, may indeed fail Koch’s Postulates, but I wouldn’t guarantee that this failure would prevent them from destroying immune systems and killing people.

The immune system is another figment—Mr Green

We have natural defenses, but let us not confuse our natural defenses with the failed CD4 model of immunity—

Over 65% of current AIDS cases are people with AIDS defining CD4 counts and no signs of opportunistic infections. Only in the AIDS Zone!

Perhaps, the reason that it is so hard to find mycoplasmas in vivo is because they are not there…

Yes, I agree that the entire Aids paradigm based on so-called HIV positivity, CD4 counts and viral loads is fallacious. No argument from me on this.

I would hope you understand my point of view on this by now.

My thesis is mainly contrary to yours in that I believe that something called HIV does exist, and is not a figment of various imaginations or an imaginary virus as you believe. I think the confusion over whether HIV exists is caused by the fact that HIV is not a conventional virus, but a recombined synthesis of proteins and nucleotide base sequence and amino acid sequences of similar viruses, possibly avian retrovirus and visna virus; and that it has no proven origin in nature, neither from Green monkeys, chimps or Macaques and doesn’t seem to be susceptible to conventional isolation or electron micrograph photography. I disbelieve the so-called “bushmeat” theory because Africans have been eating primatesd for thousands of years without contracting a deadly immune depression; and that AIDS appeared first in America among young gay men, then consequently in Africa, identified only by clinical case definition by which the subject was not required to have a HIV antibody test.

I believe that HIV didn’t exist in Africa until it was vectored by way of the small-pox vaccine, and that most of the illnesses identified as “AIDS” in Africa, are just more of the same old diseases present there for a hundred years and caused by war, poverty, lack of medical programs, contaminated water, malaria, tubercolosis etc.

And that the original fatal AIDS cases in America were caused by a pathogen, one of the mycoplasmas which were vectored into certain communities in order to test a biological weapon.

Repeat: I agree with you, Crowe, Duesberg, Bauer et al that HIV doesn’t cause Aids.

Have you been to the US patent site and read Shyh Ching Lo’s patent which is entitled “pathogenic mycoplasma?”

The patent number is 5242820. You can find it by merely googling the number or using the words Patent 5242820.

Please report your findings regarding Lo’s claims for his “novel” mycoplasma here after you have thoroughly studied the patent.

Do you have a theory regarding why the United States Army would require a patent on Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus, if the intention was not to protect an agent which they deemed useful for the development of military weapons?

Here is the statement from the CDC which I present in support of my theory that the pathogenic microbes which caused the original AIDS cases in young gay men could have been vectored by way of hepatitis B vaccine. Of course, the CDC is not admitting any such thing. I present this statement here only as evidence that contamination of vaccinations is a possible source of infection.

Google: Adventitious Agents and Vaccines by Philip R. Krause, Food and Drug Administration, Bethesda, Maryland

“In the past biologic products have served as vectors for viral disease. Examples include the contamination of yellow fever vaccine with hepatitis B virus in the l940s (because a human-derived excipent contained hepatitus B virus), contamination of early polio and adenovirus vaccines with Simian virus 40 in the late l950s and early l960s, contamination of blood products with hepatitis viruses and HIV, and contamination of dura mater grafts with Creutzfelt-Jakob disease agent. In these examples, either human or animal materials used in production usually caused the contamination.”

I understand and respectfully disagree with your view- Truman.

The rare syndrome that killed young gay men in the late 1970s and early 1980s never appeared in Africa—- AIDS in the West and African AIDS were and remain completely unrelated!

Most of the early AIDS deaths in the US were iatrogenic as they are today.

Yes, I know “The rare syndrome that killed young gay men in the late l970s and early l980s never appeared in Africa—AIDS in the West and African AiDS were and remain completely unrelated!”

You present this fact as though it is in contradiction to the theory that I am presenting here.

I am attempting to develope the case that most of the early deaths among young gay men were the result of vaccine-vectored biowarfare agents—mycoplasmas.

I have no doubt that the biowarfare pathogens were discontinued once it was discovered that a harmless agent could cause just as much grief if it was wrongly identified as the killer pathogen and dangerous medications were prescribed to combat it. Thus your iatrogenic etiology.

Although I believe the killer pathogens are still being vectored by way of contaminated illegal street drugs.

Have you been to the patent website and studied Shyh Ching Lo’s patent 5242820 for what he termed “pathogenic mycoplasma?”

I’ve asked you this question several times and each time you merely ignore it.

Most of my case regarding mycoplasma is based on Lo’s patent, so I think perhaps you should deal with this issue after studying the patent closely.

Will you do that?

Also, as I have asked you, do you have a theory regarding why the US government would require a patrent on Lo’s “Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus” if their interest was not in protecting a microbe with military capabilities?

I have tried to respond to each and every question you have asked so I wonder if it is too much to require of you in return.

Have you been to the patent website and studied Lo’s patent in detail?

1) Truman Green wrote:
The original cases of fatal immunodepression, in which young gay men died quickly, were caused by the mycoplasmas

Repeat: I agree with you, Crowe, Duesberg, Bauer et al that HIV doesn’t cause Aids.
All pre-1985 AIDS diagnoses were presumptive (there was no test back then!), and between 1985 and 1987, 93% of AIDS cases reported from NYC and San Francisco did not include HIV status information as cited in the CDC’s own 1987 Case Definition revisions. Note, more than 2/3 of US AIDS cases came from these two cities. There is no evidence that these deaths were caused by a new infectious agent!

On the other hand, there are well known but ignored, common non-infectious factors among the select subset of gay men getting ill and dying in the late seventies and early eighties.  Two significant health risks were – 1) repeated sexually transmitted diseases which were already treatment resistant because of the indiscriminate “preventative” use of antibiotics, and 2) also in this same subset of gay men there was a heavy and unprecedented use of oral aphrodisiacs and other “recreational” drugs, particularly “poppers”; IV drugs with IV drug users; in hemophiliacs and blood recipients, the preexisting condition and treatment alone are high-risk factors and then there is the iatrogenic risk group -chemo/radiation for KS “treatment”, AZT, “anti-virals” and “preventative antibiotics” with chemo/radiation,  AZT, “anti-viral” and “preventative antibiotic” users.

Sorry Truman, I do not need a bio-weapon to explain the early cases of AIDS.

Truman Green wrote:
Have you been to the US patent site and read Shyh Ching Lo’s patent which is entitled “pathogenic mycoplasma?”
I have studied mycoplasmas and I could not find any evidence that mycoplasmas caused the early AIDS cases (see above and below) or that they are more than pathogenic OIs.

What I find troubling about Luc, Lo and Nicolson is this: If you can’t find the microbe that you are looking for, as far as I am concerned—It ‘s not there. L-L&N;contend that their pathogenic mycoplasmas are there and we just can’t find those tricky devils- that is not science!

Truman Green wrote:
Do you have a theory regarding why the United States Army would require a patent on Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus, if the intention was not to protect an agent which they deemed useful for the development of military weapons?

Almost all scientific discoveries belong to whomever is paying the scientist.

As a contract employee of the U. S. Armed Forces Institute of Pathology (AFIP)/Pentagon- it is not surprising that any and all “patents” or discoveries would belong to his employers—

Although, Gallo and Montagnier recieve a royality for their “invention” the US and French governments are the patent holders.

Once again, Truman Green wrote:
And that the original fatal AIDS cases in America were caused by a pathogen, one of the mycoplasmas which were vectored into certain communities in order to test a biological weapon.
I UNDERSTAND that you believe that a bio-weapon (BW) was added to the hep B vaccine with the intent of killing gay men and this BW is the unrecognized cause of AIDS.
I disagree, based on my extensive study and experience. FYI- I have personally assisted and studied 1000s of gay men with AIDS related fears and conditions between 1982 and 1985. It is true, almost 100 percent of these men had received the hep B vaccine…. So, I paid close attention to the possibility that the vaccine was somehow involved… I believe the hepB vaccine is involved in “AIDS” in that it puts people at a much higher risk for false positive HIV-antibody test results, just like flu and other vaccines.

By the way, I discovered another risk factor that is rarely mentioned. Almost 100 percent of the men who had actual AIDS-related diseases shared that they had previously suffered from what they called “Gay Bowel Syndrome”… These men reported having passive anal sex with 100s and often 1000s of different partners. Other risks included fisting and rimming and it seems to be taboo to mention these serious health risks when discussing the early men developing AIDS.

Mr. Ellner,

Men and women have been having anal sex for thousands of years without becoming susceptible to a fatal illness. As a matter of fact, there is a certain culture which has grown in numbers in my community in which the women will have anal sex so that they may claim to be virgins. I don’t remember this community being ravaged by AIDS. It has nothing to do with AIDS except providing a scapegoat and excuse to blame gay men for contracting the fatal immune depression which was vectored into their community by way of the hepatitis B vaccine. The anal sex origin nonsense deserves the same laughter as the “bushmeat” theory. Africans have been eating non-human primates for thousands of years without contracting a fatal immune suppression.

It’s as unjustified as the fake origin (green monkeys) of this synthetic, harmless virus which was constructed in a lab using the same technology as Duesberg refers to when he admits that: “synthetic retroviruses were constructed.”

Before Montagnier and Gallo were contracted to begin their obvious HTLV/LAV hoax, pretending to “discover” a synthetic virus which had been vectored in vaccines—Hepatitis B in American and Smallpox in Africa—the hepatitis B vaccine was considered the most likely candidate as the origin of the microbe that was killing perfectly healthy young gay men. Just as planned, when the US govenment, represented by Margaret Heckler along with corrupt scientist, Robert Gallo announced the discovery of the AIDS virus, all interest and investigation into the Hep B vaccination as somehow associated with AIDS came to a grinding halt.

And yes, a huge preponderance of the men who came down with ARC and AIDS had been vaccinated with the Hepatitis B vaccine.

The government has never released the figures regarding the number of early receivers of the Hepatitis B vaccine who eventually died of AIDS.

It is known, however that as many as 50% of all young gay men had become HIV positive by l985. According to a study which I found (and will try to retrieve) the odds against this happening are millions to one. HIV was placed into the gay community and into the African community. There is no other way for it to have arrived in both places almost simultaneously and just on cue—unless it is really a naturally-occuring sexually-transmitted virus as has been claimed.

Both HIV and AIDS (by the mycoplasma microbes), were placed into the gay community by way of the Hepatitis B vaccine.

But, yes, (as you claim), many pathological syndromes and vaccinations put subjects at risk to test antibody positive to HIV. But the Hepatitis B vaccine put thousands of young gay men at risk of death by murder by way of vaccination poisoning.

Mr. Ellner, have you been to the patent website and studied in detail Shyh Ching Lo’s “novel” and “pathogenic mycoplasma.”

If you have studied these mycoplasmas as you claim you will have noticed that they are capable of doing everything which has been falsely attributed to HIV, including entering T-lymphocytes and riding along with them for years, slowly compromising their function.

The US Army patent, number 5242820 is the best place to study Lo’s claims for Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus.

Mr. Ellner, you write that you “paid close attention to the possibility that the vaccine was somehow involved.” I apologize for finding humour in this, but exactly how did you “pay close attention?” Did you do a masked, double-blind, placebo-based clinical study? And exactly who cohort did you use for a control group?

Was your “close attention” paid in an accredited, independent laboratory, and were your results published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal?

To my knowledge this kind of investigation of the link between the Hepatitis B vaccine and Aids was never done, although I believe that it might have been if the Montagnier-Gallo hoax had not prevented it.

And, of course, no independent scientific organization ever got its hands on the vaccines to examine them before they were injected.

I would like to add: Mr. Ellner admits that “almost 100 percent of these men had received the Hep B vaccine.” (referring to men had developed possible symptoms of AIDS).

If a cohort of one hundred men develop salmonella poison and they have all eaten at the same restaurant then every investigator on the planet will be almost certain that restaurant is the origin of the Salmonella poisoning.

This is how we generally do cause and effect on this planet.

I believe that it takes a rare kind of determined denialism to so confidently rule out the Hepatitis B vaccine as the vector for AIDS—especially for a rethinker who believes that Hiv does not cause AIDS.

Truman Green:

<<< Men and women have been having anal sex for thousands of years without becoming susceptible to a fatal illness.>>>

Yes – Men and women have been having anal sex for thousands of years without becoming susceptible to a fatal illness.

On the other hand, I believe that it is quite foolish to ignore the fact that the sexual dynamics of the subset of gay men getting sick, in the late 1970s and 1980s were historically unique.

<<<Snip:According to Dr. Friedman Kien, the reporting doctors said that most cases had involved homosexual men who have had multiple and frequent sexual encounters with different partners, as many as 10 sexual encounters each night up to four times a week.
  Many of the patients have also been treated for viral infections such as herpes, cytomegalovirus and hepatitis B as well as parasitic infections such as amebiasis
and giardiasis. Many patients also reported that they had used drugs such as amyl nitrite and LSD to heighten sexual pleasure. Unsnip>>> RARE CANCER SEEN IN 41 HOMOSEXUALS, NY Times, L. Altman, MD, July 3, 1981

In my opinion having passive anal sex with 1000s of partners in a year could just be too much of a “good” thing. Especially when you factor in their use of a very immune-suppressive drug and their history of catching and treating other sexually transmitted infections like syphilis and the clap.

<<<Mr. Ellner, you write that you “paid close attention to the possibility
that the vaccine was somehow involved.” I apologize for finding humour in
this, but exactly how did you “pay close attention?”>>>

I was very attentive to health risks of the people that I came into contact with through HEAL. My focus was on who was getting sick and trying to understand why that may be… When testing began, I always asked people who tested “positive” about their health risks—HepB vaccines put you at risk for testing HIV-positive.  It does not appear to be a major risk for developing AIDS—

No studies – No documentation—Just my observations…

Truman wrote;
<<<I would like to add: Mr. Ellner admits that “almost 100 percent of these men had received the Hep B vaccine.” (referring to men had developed possible symptoms of AIDS). >>>

You misquote me—The hepB vaccine has a high correlation to hiv-positivity what ever the heck that non-specific reaction means—

However I have never met one person with AIDS whose only risk factor was getting a hepB vaccine. Every one I met who had AIDS had many of the well known health risks… which supports a multi-factorial view

Mr. Ellner, I don’t wish to discount the relevance of your personal experience, but thousands of doctors who deal with Aids patients on a daily basis still believe that this pathetic (“wimpy,” as Duesberg so aptly calls it)para-virus causes AIDS. Unless you are many times more perceptive than they, I think, as an uninvolved spectator, you too, would put little stock in such observations as you present here to convince us that the vaccines had nothing to do with AIDS.

There is no way to know by merely talking to your clients, friends or patients what is going on inside of their immune systems or what pathogens have entered their bodies.

For this we need reliable studies and tests. I think it should be obvious that the Montagnier-Gallo hoax was invented in order to conceal the role of the Hepatitis B vaccine in AIDS and consequently bring the wrath of the world down on the heads of the perpetrators.

Have you been to the patent 5242820 website and diligently studied the information about M.Fermentans Incognitus?

To my knowledge, the kind of studies which would have proven or discounted a link between the Hep B vaccine and AIDS have never been done.

Do you have a reference for such studies?

You can find mycoplasma incognitus in the diseased brains of many AIDS patients and the several HIV negative patients that the Armed forces lab ruled to be the cause of death by Mycoplamsa incognitus, they were 6 previously healthy military personal that suddenly died of myterious pathogenic infections, and the Mycoplasma incognitus was found and autopsies were done were EM photos were showing this microbe rotting people’s organs.  This proves they are pathogenic in their own right. References above

Yes Mycoplasmas were not found in all AIDS cases, but is AIDS one single disease, or several different Diseases under one nebulous umbrella?

Kochs postulates are follfilled for Mycoplasma incognitus, not as a cause of all AIDS cases, but for being pathogenic in their own right since Lo et al induced a fatal disease in animals and ruled it to be the cause of death of several previously healthy people that suddenly died.  Em pictures were taken of this microbe causing lesions in organs.

Ironically this is what Garth and
Nancy Nicolson found in many CFS and Gulf war vets blood, and when they did their boss at the MD cancer center told them it was part of the bioweapons program and moments later he was shot by a professional assasin.  Armed agents also warned the Nicolsons to stop thier research.
Their barely fictionilized book is mindblowing.
http://www.projectdaylily.com

Some will say Im a nut, but I’m not this is the same government that killed 3 million in vietnam, experimented on Black people, Truman is right its mycoplasma thats the bioweapon, HIV is harmless.

Clear evidence Mycoplasmas are pathogenic in their own right when Lo et al showed they cause Fatal infections in previolusly healthy AIDS free men and primates.  Looks like Duesberg is wrong and Lo is right.  Whoever said you can’t find mycoplasmas is wrong, clear evidence they are found with EM rotting people’s organs.

EXAMPLE 21
M. fermentans incognitus Identified In Non-AIDS Patients
Six patients from six different geographic areas who presented with acute
flu-like ilnesses were studied. The patients developed persistent fevers,
lymphadenopathy or diarrhea, pneumonia, and/or heart, liver, or adrenal
failure. They all died in 1-7 weeks.
These patients had no serological evidence of HIV infection and could not
be classified as AIDS patients according to CDC criteria. The clinical
signs as well as laboratory and pathological studies of these patients
suggested an active infectious process, although no etiological agent was
found despite extensive infectious disease work-ups during their
hospitalization.
Post-mortem examinations showed histopathological lesions of fulminant
necrosis involving the lymph nodes, spleen, lungs, liver, adrenal glands,
heart, and/or brain. No viral inclusion cells, bacteria, fungi, or
parasites could be identified in these tissues using special tissue stains.
However, the use of rabbit antiserum and the monoclonal antibodies raised
against M. fermentans incognitus (Example 8), the pathogen shown to cause
fatal systemic infection in primates (Example 10), revealed M. fermentans
incognitus antigens in these necrotizing lesions. In situ hybridization
using a .sup.35 S labeled M. fermentans incognitus-specific DNA probe
(Example 18) also detected M. fermentans incognitus genetic material in the
areas of necrosis.
Furthermore, M. fermentans incognitus particles were identified
ultrastructurally in these histopathological lesions. M. fermentans
incognitus was associated with the systemic necrotizing lesions in these
previously healthly non-AIDS patients with an acute fatal disease.
Typical areas of necrosis due to the M. fermentans incognitus infection of
these patients are shown in FIG. 21. Most of the tissues which had massive
necrosis showed only minimal lymphocytic or histiocytic response and few
neutrophils (FIGS. 21A, B and C). FIG. 21A is a photomicrograph of splenic
tissue (x 30.5). FIG. 21B shows the peripheral margin of necrosis of 21A (x
153). FIG. 21C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 15.25).
Occasionally, a chronic or acute inflammatory reaction could be identified
in the areas of necrosis (FIG. 21D). FIG. 21D is a photomicrograph of
adrenal gland tissue (x 153).
Representative samples of the immunostained tissues of these patients are
shown in FIGS. 22A-D. FIG. 22A is a photomicrograph of spleen tissue (x
80). FIG. 22B is a higher magnification of the margin of necrosis of 22A (x
353). FIG. 22C is a photomicrograph of lymph node tissue (x 257). FIG. 22D
is a higher magnification of cells with positive cytoplasmic staining of
22C (x 706). FIG. 22E is a photomicrograph of hemorrhagic necrosis in
adrenal gland tissue (x 706). The areas which displayed the highest
concentration of M. fermentans incognitus related antigens were often at
the margin of necrosis.
However, the necrotic center and peripheral unaffected areas had relatively
low reactivity. Most of the positively stained cells were identified as
lymphocytes or histiocytes in the lymph nodes and spleen, or reactive
mononuclear cells in the liver, lungs, adrenal glands and heart.
Immunostaining of control tissues with necrotizing lesions from patients
with cat scratch disease, Hodgkin’s disease, malignant lymphoma,
cryptococcal fungal infections and hemorrhagic splenic tissues of Hairy
cell leukemia did not display a positive reaction. Serum obtained from the
same rabbit before immunizaiton with M. fermentans incognitus antigens also
failed to display a positive immunoreaction in the necrotizing lesions of
the six patients.
Using a .sup.35 S radiolabeled psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA probe
(Example 18), strong labeling of clusters of cells at the margins of
necrosis of the affected tissues was observed. The affected tissues tested
were formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded spleen, lung, lymph node, adrenal
gland liver and bone marrow. The intensity of the labeling, or the number
of grains localized in the cells at the margin of necrosis was well above
the level present at either the necrosis (FIGS. 23A and B). However, there
were also clusters of apparently viable cells in the necrosis which were
also strongly labeled (FIG. 23C). FIG. 23A shows strong labeling of cells
at the peripheral zone of necrosis (x 76.5). FIG. 23B is a higher
magnification of 23A (x 422). FIG. 23C shows the occasional positive
labeling in an area of diffuse necrosis in the spleen (x 150). The inset of
23C is a higher magnification (x 422).
Formalin-fixed, paraffin-embedded liver and spleen tissues from a patient
with pancreatic carcinoma were used as negative controls, and showed no
labeling above background levels. A control probe of .sup.35 S labeled
cloning vector DNA, not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus DNA did
not label any of the tested tissues (FIG. 23D). FIG. 23D is the same area
of FIG. 23C in the consecutive tissue section, hybridized with .sup.35 S
labeled cloning vector DNA not containing psb-2.2 M. fermentans incognitus
DNA (x 150) (i.e., control for 23C).
Areas of the necrotizing lesions which immunostained most positively for M.
fermentans incognitus specific antigens were examined by electromicroscopy.
Particles with characteristic ultrastructural features of M. fermentans
incognitus were directly identified in all the lesions. These particles in
the areas of necrosis, morphologically resembled M. fermentans incognitus
previously identified in Sb51 cells (Example 4) and in the tissues of
experimentally inoculated monkeys (Example 10). The particles were
heterogeneous in size and shape, with most particles being spherical and
about 140 to 280 nm in diameter. At the margin of necrosis, the M.
fermentans incognitus particles were located in the cytoplasm of cells with
apparently no cytopathic changes, or in fragments of cytoplasm from
completely disrupted cells (FIG. 24). FIG. 24 shows electron mircographs of
tissues derived from areas highly positive for M. fermentans
incognitus-specific antigens. FIG. 24A is an electron micrograph at a
margin of necrosis in adrenal gland tissues (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24A.sub.2
is a higher magnification of 24A (Bar=100 nm). FIGS. 24B.sub.1, and B.sub.2
are electron micrographs of the peripheral zone of necrosis in lymph node
tissue (Bar=1,000 nm). FIG. 24B.sub.3 is a higher magnification of
24B.sub.2 (Bar=100 nm).
Table 5, below, summarizes the profiles and histopathological findings for
each of the six patients.
TABLE 5
__________________________________________________________________________
Summary of Patient’s Profiles and Histopathological Findings
Tissue with necrotic
Duration
lesions identified
Personal
Salient clinical of illness by biopsy or at Patient
Profiles presentation (weeks) autopsy
__________________________________________________________________________
1 29-year old
arthralgia, myalgia, conjunc-
4.5 spleen, lung
black man
tivitis, persistent fever,
hypercalcemia, liver failure
(late), ARDs* (late)
2 33-year old
persistent fever, diarrhea,
7 lymph nodes, liver,
white woman
generalized lymphadenopathy,
spleen, kidneys
abnormal liver functions,
seizure (late)
3 40-year old
arthralgia, myalgia, sore
3.5 adrenal glands
white man
throat, chest pain, persis-
(bilateral), heart,
tent fever, malaise, diarrhea,
brain
finger numbness, comatose
(late)
4 31-year old
vomiting and diarrhea, tremor,
1.5 liver, spleen
black woman
fever, epigastric and chest
pain, abnormal liver functions,
headache
5 23-year old
Watery diarrhea, vomiting,
3 liver, heart
white man
jaundice, arthralgia, myalgia
6 33-year old
fever, malaise, nausea and
1 spleen, liver
black man
vomiting, myalgia and weakness,
liver failure and jaundice,
confusion and hallucinations
(late)
__________________________________________________________________________
*ARDS Adult Respiratory Distress Syndrome

Lo SC; Dawson MS; Newton PB 3rd; Sonoda MA; Shih JW; Engler WF; Wang RY; Wear DJ. Association of the virus-like infectious agent originally reported in patients with AIDS with acute fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, September 1989, volume 41, number 3, pages 364-376.

I believe I have established that scientists have been capable of creating retroviruses for many years; that Duesberg admits that “avian retroviruses were constructed;” that there was at least a time-line correlation between the Hepatitis B vaccines being administered to young gay men and the appearance of fatal immune depression; I believe the record regarding the strangeness of the so-called HIV pathogen speaks for itself. Lo’s patent for M.Fermentans Incognitus, and his various studies on M.Fermentans Penetrans strongly suggest that there is a positive animal model of causation for immune depression and death.

I would like to continue my theory that HIV actually exists as a man-made, snythetic para-virus, contrary to the beliefs of many rethinkers; that the debacle between Montagnier and Gallo was an elaborate hoax; that Lo’s mycoplasma is the real cause of AIDs and
Gulf War Syndrome; that antibiotics have proven to be useful for GWS and AIDS, and that the studies on the efficacy of Doxycycline (an atibiotic) for AIDS patients have been suppressed.

But first, I’d like to thank AIM and Cliff Kincaid, whose article above is in complete antithesis to my opinions, for keeping this forum open and allowing the presentation of my ideas and those of all of the other posters on this site.

My above comment regarding doxycycline refers specifically to a study apparently done by the Community Research Initiative of New York to test the efficacy of doxycycline as a treatment for AIDS.

Google: “CRI Plans Doxycycline Treatment Study.”

From the website: “New York’s Community Research Initiative, one of the pioneers of community-based AIDS research is developing a trial to see whether the antibiotic doxycycline can help certain patients with an ARC diagnosis—and whether a blood test for mycoplasma infection can predict who might benefit. This test will test the hypothesis of Luc Montagnier, one of the discoverers of the AIDS virus, that mycoplasmas might be an important cofactor in the developement of AIDS.”

I believe this message was posted on the CRI website in the ‘90s. I would very much like to know if the study was ever completed, and if so, what were the findings.

If any of the readers of this forum have this information perhaps they would post it here.

Yes Doxycyclinne can cure people who are infected with Lo’s pathogenic mycoplasmas(Gulf war vets/CFS patients)

Histopathology and doxycycline treatment in a previously healthy non-AIDS patient systemically infected by Mycoplasma fermentans (incognitus strain).
Lo SC, Buchholz CL, Wear DJ, Hohm RC, Marty AM.

Department of Infectious and Parasitic Diseases Pathology, Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, Washington, D.C. 20306-6000.

The newly recognized human pathogenic mycoplasma M. fermentans (incognitus strain) causes a fatal systemic infection in experimental monkeys, infects patients with AIDS, and apparently is associated with a fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. An apparently immunocompetent male who lacked evidence of HIV infection developed fever, malaise, progressive weight loss, and diarrhea and had extensive tissue necrosis involving liver and spleen. M. fermentans (incognitus strain) was centered at the advancing margins of these necrotizing lesions. Following the treatment of 300 mg doxycycline per day for 6 weeks, he recovered fully. He has no fever or diarrhea, and his abnormal liver function tests have returned to normal. He regained all lost strength and 14 kg of lost weight and has remained disease free for more than 1 year.

PMID: 1788266 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

M. fermentans could have a high probablity to be a co-factor for AIDS via vaccinations. This could explain why gay men on both sides of the U.S. developed AIDS. And who knows what the Gulf War Vets were given in the way of vaccinations?

Nevertheless, this doesn’t explain why a select few of us who are not in either category developed AIDS. The only vaccination that I received prior to my AIDS diagnosis was tetanus but many years prior, I had numerous vaccinations in the military. Also, radiation treatments couldn’t have helped my immunity.

Nevertheless, I certainly would like to know what co-factors are causing this disease as I had numerous opportunistic diseases to include PML. It is a wonder that I survived.

My viral load and CD4’s are the same now as when I was sick and dying. I know that these two yardsticks used to measure health are false. I also believe that AIDS is not terminal and with some medicines,  supplements. etc. one can survive.

I definitely had the Lazarus effect and have been doing well ever since. What ever is triggering all of this, I hope that low dose naltrexone will continue to keep it at bay.

Re Micheal Ellner
AZT use isn’t found in all aids cases, does that mean AZT isnt pathogenic in its own right?

Noreen,
According to the wikipedia PML is caused be chemotherapy or HIV, talk to your doctor, dont rely on internet sources.

There again, how can a harmless retrovirus cause PML or anything else for that matter. Talking to doctors about AIDS is like talking to programmed robots. Everyone on this site knows more about it because we at least have open minds and consider other possibilities. They will not change their minds until the official position about AIDS changes.

Elinor Burkett wrote an excellent piece on Lo’s mycoplasma in the Miami Herald on Dec. 23, l990.
It appears on the Virusmyth website, entitled “Is HIV guilty?” It’s a great introduction to a study of the correlation between mycoplasma and AIDS, and recounts the fear in the AIDIST community that HIV, the premier golden goose of fake killer pathogens, might be exposed for what it truly is—a chunk of chimerically recombined, synthesized proteins and gene products, not unlike Duesberg’s avian retroviruses, which he admits “were constructed” in his paper “Latent Viruses and Mutated Oncogenes.”

From Elinor Burkett’s article:

“Lo laid all of his cards on the table, He had detected an organism similar to bacteria called a mycoplasma in the cells taken from AIDS patients. He could not find the organism in cells of healthy individuals. When he injected the organism into four silver leaf monkeys they quickly developed low grade fever. All four lost weight.  All four died within seven to nine months of infection. When they were autopsied, three was Lo’s mycoplasma in their brains, livers and spleens.”

Today I discovered that Shyh Ching Lo also has the patent for Mycoplasma Penetrans. The patent number is 5215914 and can be found online by googling the patent number. From the patent:“The present invention relates to a novel mycoplasma isolated from the urine of patients with AIDS. The mycoplasma has unique morphological and pathobiological properties. The invention further relates to the DNA sequence of the novel mycoplasma and vaccines against the mycoplasma infection.”“The mycoplasma does not appear to be related to any other species of human or animal mycoplasma. This novel mycoplasma is referred to hereafter as M.Penetrans.“I hope everyone who can’t reject the role of these pathogens in AIDS quite as easily as Michael Ellner, will go to the patent site and study the information diligently. Lo also has completed an extremely interesting study regarding the antibody correlation between HIV infection and the presence of M.Penetrans. I will locate it and present it on this forum.

Why should any one believe that AIDS is caused by bio-warfare just because Dr Lo discovered pathogenic, atypical mycoplasmas in some AIDS patients—Virulent, atypical infections are the hallmark of AIDS.

The Lo patents do not answer the question: Are the mycoplasmas that Dr Lo discovered the cause of AIDS or just another rare opportunistic infection.

My vote is they are just a rare opportunistic infection.

Ellner suggests that Lo would not have recognized the neccesity to link HIV, AIDS and the “novel” mycoplasmas. I am not a scientist, but even I would understand that some evidence of correlation must be presented.

Here’s Lo’s evidence regarding a correlation that is more than opportunistic.

Title: “High frequency of antibodies to Mycoplasma penetrans in HIV-infected patients.”

Abstract: “Mycoplasma penetrans, a novel mycoplasma isolated from HIV-l-infected patients with AIDS, has pathogenic properties associated with in-vivo virulence. Enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay and western blotting detected a more than 100 times higher frequency of antibodies to the mycoplasma in serum from HIV-l infected patients with AIDS (40%) than from HIV-negative controls (0.3%). Serum from 20% of HIV-l-infected, symptom-free individuals also had M.Penetrans specific antibodies. None of the 178 HIV-negative patients with different non-AIDS diseases, many associated with immune dysfunction and/or low white cells counts, tested positive for the antibodies. M. penetrans, apparently not commensal and not a simple opportunist, is uniquely associated with HIV-1 infection and AIDS.”

Translated into plain Enlish, Lo finds that patients with AIDS who are also infected with HIV have one hundred times the antibodies to M.penetrans than patients not infected with HIV. None of the 178 HIV-negative patients with non-AIDS diseases had antibodies to M. Penetrans. The persuavive conclusion is that HIV becomes virulent only when associated with certain mycoplasmas. Among Lo’s subjects, the presence of antibodies to M. penetrans in HIV-positive patients appears to be the deciding factor which determines if HIV will cause illness or be almost immediately destroyed by the immune system.

The other possibility is that HIV causes no pathology whatsoever, but has merely been vectored along with M. Penetrans, which would explain the concurrent presence.

Some intellectual ability in syllogistic logic will be helpful here, but unless Lo has used improper methodology, his linkage is very compelling.

Again: “None of the 178 HIV-negative patients with non-AIDS diseases had antibodies to Mycoplasma Penetrans.”

Re michael ellner
Oppurtunistic infections dont cause fatal wasting diseases in primates and previously healthy men, nobody is saying all AIDS cases are caused by Lo’s mycoplasma, but he did prove they are pathogenic in their own right, just like Duesberg proved AZT is pathogenic in its own right, even though its not found in all AIDS cases.

I’d also recommend a study by Luc Montagnier entitled “A Longitudinal Study of Seroreactivity Against Mycoplasma Penetrans in HIV-infected Homosexual Men: Association With Disease Progression.” This study is available on Pubmed.

Montagnier’s conclusion from the abstract:

“These findings suggest an association between active M. Penetrans infection and progression of HIV Disease.”

Also: “Mycoplasma penetrans associated with Kaposis sarcoma in male homosexuals with AIDS” by Shyh Ching Lo et al.

From the abstract:

“We recently isolated a new mycoplasma, M.penetrans, from the urogenital tracts of 6 HIV+ patients with AIDS.”

“Examining antibodies to M. penetrans specific lipid-associated membrane proteins (LAMPS) in serum samples from 1337 patients. (Lancet l992) 340: 1312-16, we found the Mycoplasma uniquely associated with HIV infection and AIDS. Further testing for LAMP antibodies in different risk-groups of HIV-l infection and AIDS demonstrates none of 107 serum samples from intravenous drug users (61 samples are positive, 46 are negative for HIV-l) have antibodies. In contrast, 74 of 134 (55.2%) serum samples from male homosexual patients with AIDS have tested positive. Thus, M. Penetrans is circulating mainly among homosexual men.”

Lo also finds: “The study reveals infection with M.penetrans is significantly associated with development of K.S. among HIV+ male homosexuals with AIDS.”

KS is Kaposis sarcoma.

Dear Reader,

The important thing is to keep an open mind and to be willing to re-think every thing that we think we know about HIV and AIDS and that includes the possible role that mycoplasmas may or may not play in developing the OIs and conditions called AIDS.

Having said that, I highly recommend setting your BS-detectors to go off the second that you see or hear the phrase: “Previously Healthy”

Translated into plain English, Lo’s Abstract (“High frequency of antibodies to Mycoplasma penetrans in HIV-infected patients.”)
claims that because AIDS patients who tested HIV+ have one hundred times the antibodies to M.penetrans than HIV- controls, that 20% of asymptomatic HIV+ individuals also have these antibodies, and that none of the diseased HIV- patients in their study had these antibodies, that HIV itself becomes virulent only when associated with certain mycoplasmas.

Sounds convincing. But back up a minute. If this microbe is so pervasive in these patients, i.e., if there is viremia, why is Lo, et al, using indirect methods to detect it, namely, using antibody tests and PCR to detect it, instead of culturing the mycoplasma directly from the blood samples? Could it be the same reason that AIDS experts never, ever offer direct evidence of HIV-viremia, i.e., that there is no viremia, mycoplasmic or
otherwise?!

Lo admits that, “Serum from 20% of HIV-l-infected, symptom-free individuals also had M.Penetrans-specific antibodies”. If M.penetrans is pathogenic or makes HIV pathogenic, as claimed by Lo, Green and S., why are 20% of people with both infections symptom free? Is the idea that both HIV and mycoplasma have latent periods? Before you try to answer that tricky question, keep in mind that all the question does is take you further from the first, far more essential question: How can there be ANY infectious illness without viremia? Easy. There cannot be. If there is no viremia, there is no infectious illness. You can only be dealing with a non-infectious illness.

In my opinion, Lo, Green and the mysterious S did not do anything other than reinforce the idea that the death of their patients, in particular the rotting of their tissues and organs, was caused by highly cytotoxic agents, namely, non-infectious chemicals like ARVs, protease inhibitors, antibiotics and recreational drugs. But, hey, that’s just my opinion…

I hope that we can all agree that is long past time to demand public hearings and a full blown investigation into the all of the lies the public health officials and major news outlets have told us about the risks, scope and causes of AIDS.

Ellner ignores the evidence, as usual.

Lo injected chimps with the novel mycoplasmas and they were all dead within seven to nine months. “S” has pesented ample evidence that these mycoplasms are pathogenic on their own.

The Japanese and Chinese researchers I have mentioned have developed hypotheses regarding how these mycoplasmas may upgrade and activate the replication capability of HIV—by the association between Lipid-associated membrane proteins, and toll-like receptors.

Ellner calls for investigations into the conventional HIV/AIDS paradigm, but mocks any evidence that the novel mycoplasms are somehow associated with AIDS. I sincerely believe that this is very strange behaviour for someone who claims to be interested in the truth. As his evidence that the Hepatitis B vaccine wasn’t asssociated with the new “gay plague,” Ellner claims that he “paid attention” to see if he could find any correlation. And because Lo and Nicolson could not find mycoplasmas in every case of AIDS or Gulf War Syndrome Ellner concludes that: “This is not science.”

In spite of very compelling evidence that Mycoplasma Penetrans and Mycoplasma Fermentans Incognitus do not exist in nature, and in spite of very compelling evidence of their association with AIDS, Gulf War Syndrome, Fibromyalgia, Parkinsons Disease, Alzheimers, and other neurodegenerative and neurobehavioural diseases, Ellner, in the true style of the conventional AIDISTs with whom he claims to be in opposition, merely continues to mock the evidence.

Ranting and raving that HIV does not cause AIDS will accomplish exactly nothing, whether it is true or not. Science does not progress unless another causative agent or systsem can be found to replace the one that has been accepted by society and the vast majority of the scientific community.

The nobel prize was eventually given to Barry Marshall and Robin Warren for the discovery that H.pylori causes 90 percent of duodenal and 80 percent of gastric ulcers. These gentlemen had been mocked for 20 years for their evidence.

I have no doubt that Lo, Montagnier and Nicolson have found such agents and they are the novel, pathogenic mycoplasmas that Lo has described in his patents under the numbers 5242820 (M.Fermentans Incognitus), and 5215914,(M.Penetrans).

There is a huge fear in the pharmaceutical and medical science communities that bacteria, including cell wall deficient bacteria such as the mycoplasmas, will be discovered to be the causes of numerous illnesses. Compared to the outrageous costs of the numerous antiretrovirals and cancer chemotherapies, which attack the proposed pathogen by attacking the body, antibiotics are dirt cheap.

There have been studies on the efficacy of Doxycycline as a treatment for AIDS. Garth Nicolson and his associates have shown that it is efficacious in the treatment of the Gulf War illnesses. If Doxycycline is beneficial as a treatment, the causastive pathogen must be a bacteria or a bacteria-like form. Antibiotics don’t work on viruses.

If bacteria and mycoplasmas are found to be the true cause of AIDS and the other illnesses of “unknown origin” I have mentioned, including cancer, the pharmaceuticals and medical science will be seen for what they they have become: totally corrupted; and they should be subject to liability in a massive unearned transfer of funds.

For this reason medical science is never going to admit that HIV doesn’t cause AIDS, unless there is undeniable proof that another causative agent is involved.

“Sounds convincing. But back up a minute. If this microbe is so pervasive in these patients, i.e., if there is viremia, why is Lo, et al, using indirect methods to detect it, namely, using antibody tests and PCR to detect it, instead of culturing the mycoplasma directly from the blood samples? Could it be the same reason that AIDS experts never, ever offer direct evidence of HIV-viremia, i.e., that there is no viremia, mycoplasmic or
otherwise?”

This is not true at all Lo did not use indirect methods, he autopsied several AIDS patients and 6 previously healthy men and women in the military that died within 1-7 weeks of an undiagnosed infection and took Electron microscopic pictures of the Mycoplasma and saw it directly rotting the organs of these people.

These previously healthy HIV negative patients were not on AZT were totally healthy and suddenly went into a high fever comatose state and on autopsy the only thing found in the tissues was mycoplamsa incognitus rotting every organ.  They all died in 1-7 weeks clealry proving this microbe is pathogenic in its own right, and can kill, but im sure many people can have a better immune response, so it can cause a less severe wide array of illnesses, many of which will be misdiagnosed as hypochondria etc.

The same autposies were done on monkeys that were inoculated that died in 7-9 months and again EM was used to see the mycoplasma causing necrosis.  This is about as direct as you get in Virology, taking pictures from the autopsied damaged tissues with the electron microscope.

As far as Asymptomatic people testing positive, maybe their immune system kept it at bay and they are only mild symptoms in the early stages, symptoms that were written off, much like most people with Gulf war illness etc whose symptoms are written off.
Here is another case report of a near death
experience from a 17 year old girl, mycoplasma penetrans was the only agent found
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/eid/vol5no1/yanez.htm

It seems, at least to me, that Mr. Green is unable to discern the difference in my ignoring the evidence and my evaluating the evidence.

And it seems to me that Mr. Green gets more disturbed and nastier by my failure to get caught up in his “mycoplasma-mania” every time that I post. Quite frankly, I see no benefit in continuing this one-sided exchange.

Before signing off – I must say that I find it mind-blowing that Mr. Green suggests that “Ranting and raving that HIV does not cause AIDS will accomplish exactly nothing, whether it is true or not.” He seems completely oblivious to the deleterious effect that his ranting and raving that AIDS is bio-warfare is having on rethinking AIDS. Give me a break!

In closing, I remind Mr. Green and S (who continues to feel the need to conceal his identity?) that although antibiotics may be cheap, they are also very dangerous as evidenced by methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA). I would urge considering the possible harm caused by super-bugs that are resistant to Doxycycline, because they were used hysterically.

I have asked Mr. Ellner to go to the patent websites for M.Fermentans and M.Penetrans several times. He completely ignores the request and refuses to directly discuss any of the information in the patents.

As far as antibiotics being dangerous, everything composed of atoms on the planet is dangerous if it us used irresponsibly. MRSA is not caused by the antibiotics but rather by the fact that bacteria, in their awe-inspiring replication mechanism,(one unit to a million in 24 hours)known as binary fission, are able to preserve those members of their species which have become resistant to certain kinds of antibiotics. The neo-Darwinians call this natural selection.

If mycoplasmas are truly associated with HIV, either as the embedded and purposefully-vectored real causative agent, or by upgrading HIV to killer status, it is essential that they are exposed as killer pathogens and not just commensal or opportunistic infections.

I think anyone who independently studies the so-called immunodepression virus will eventually question its origin and conclude that it originated neither from green or macaque monkeys or from Africans eating bushmeat. It originated in America and was constructed in the fashion of SHIV (simian-human immunodeprssion virus), the recombinant herpes viruses, the patents for which I have posted, and the avian retroviruses which Peter Duesberg admits “were constructed.”

HIV is a recombinant, genetically-engineered synthetic conglomeration of the proteins of naturally-occurring viruses. The shame is that any serious person with an interest in medical science would fail to recognize this obvious fact. M.Fermentans and M.Penetrans were upgraded from conventional mycoplasmas to killer pathogens. If this is not biological warfare then there is no biological warfare.

If the truth tends to wreck the Duesberg/Crowe/Bauer/Ellner rethinking AIDS program, it might also have a role in the eventual destruction of conventional AIDISM.

It has been well established that M.Penetrans is almost uniquely associated with HIV. Here’s a study completed not by Lo or Montagnier, but by Grau O, Slizewicz B and Tuppin P.

Title: ““Association of Mycoplasma Penetrans with Human Immunodeficiency virus infection.”

From the abstract: “M.Penetrans infection was predominantly but not exclusively associated with homosexual practises in HIV-seropositive subjects and thus presumably sexually transmitted. M.Pentrans sero-prevalence increased with progression of HIV-associated disease. No association was found between M. Penetrans and KS. Thus, there is an unambiguous association between M. Penetrans and HIV, particularly among homosexual persons, but its clinical significance remains to be investigated.”

Translation: Why does this novel mycoplasma almost always show up in the urine of HIV positive male homosexuals—and almost nowhere else?

To find this study go to the Pubmed site and enter the title in the search box.

My perhaps overdone sarcasm concerning Michael Ellner is derived from the fact that he wouldn’t derive even a morsel of curiosity about the concurrence of HIV and M. Penetrans in this study by Grau et al, but would resort, I’m sure, to his default position: “It’s just an opportunistic infection.”

Green writes:
<< Here’s a study completed not by Lo or Montagnier, but by Grau O, Slizewicz B and Tuppin P.>>

Grau O, Slizewicz B and Tuppin P. were part of Montagnier’s AIDS research group in Paris.

Mr. Green,

My position is based on the absence of “HIV”-viremia and the lack of a correlation between CD4 cells and disease at every stage of so-called AIDS progression.

My concern is that “testing” and “early treatment” are actively recommended, when the actual evidence clearly demonstrates that there is no proof of infection(1) and early treatments shorten lives(2).

I have investigated and reject the bio-warfare model for two reasons.

1) The Lo and Montagnier theories are based on the belief that that mycoplasma infection increases HIV replication and the fact that there is no HIV-viremia at any point in so-called AIDS progression profoundly discredits that belief.

2) The abstract of the study below speaks for itself:
“Mycoplasma species in rapid and slow HIV progressors.”  Intl J STD AIDS. 2000 Feb;11(2):76-9
Ainsworth JG, Hourshid S, Easterbrook PJ, Gilroy CB, Weber JN, Taylor-obinson D.
Division of Medicine, Imperial College School of Medicine, St Mary’s Hospital, London, UK.

We determined the relationship between the presence of Mycoplasma fermentans and Mycoplasma penetrans and the rate of progression of HIV-associated disease in a nested case-control study based on a cohort of 159 HIV-infected patients with different rates of disease progression. Study participants were divided into 3 progression groups: non-progressors who had been HIV-1 seropositive for at least 9 years and had remained asymptomatic with a CD4 cell count of > 500/mm3; slow progressors who had been HIV-1 seropositive for at least 9 years and whose CD4 cell count had fallen below 500 cells, and who had developed symptomatic disease or AIDS; and rapid progressors who had developed AIDS within 5 years of HIV infection. Peripheral blood mononuclear cells (PBMCs) were collected at enrollment and examined by mycoplasma polymerase chain reaction (PCR) assays. Three (7%) of 46 non-progressors, 3 (3%) of 86 slow progressors, and 2 (7%) of 27 rapid progressors were M. fermentans positive. The PBMCs from 91 subjects were tested for M. penetrans DNA and none was positive. The small proportion of M. fermentans-positive patients indicates that the mycoplasma cannot be important in the development of AIDS in the large majority of patients. Furthermore, no association was found between its presence and more rapid HIV disease progression.
PMID: 10678473 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1) Bio/Technology, 11, 6/93
2) New Study Questions Use of AZT In Early Treatment of AIDS Virus, By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN, New York Times, April 2, 1993 // Early Treatment for H.I.V. Doesn’t Prolong Survival, Study Finds, By LAWRENCE K. ALTMAN, NY Times July 16, 1995

As we debate, the NYC Department of Health is planning on testing every adult in the Bronx, so that they can begin early treatment!  Quite frankly, it is hard enough challenging this real threat without having to deal with your BS and overdone sarcasm – Mr Green.

I am as aware as anyone that the HIV/AIDS machine is gearing up for a massive sell off of the useless and murderous antiretrovirals.

They are able to do this only because of the conventional HIV/AIDS paradigm; that HIV is the sole cause of AIDS.

The only remedy to this sinister situation is the body of evidence that identifies the true cause of this disease. This investigation was stopped when Heckler and Gallo held their press conference stating that the cause had been found before a single scientific paper had been published on the Montagnier-Gallo “discovery.”

The faction which promotes the idea that the HIV is “man-made” and indeed is the cause of AIDS, perhaps led by Leonard Horowitz, Boyd Graves and Alan Cantwell, might indeed be vicariously encouraging the sale of useless programs such as HAART and the promotion of mass-scale testing for HIV.

The belief that there is a Mycoplasma causation and association with AIDS will never sell a single antiretroviral or DNA chain terminator.

And perhaps your claim that HIV is a figment of the imagination; that it doesn’t even exist, will be as believable as a claim that the moon doesn’t exist. One could make an argument that this seemingly “goofy” claim will only promote the HIV/AIDS paradigm and promote the continuation of the AIDS crimes.

And I believe that your claim that HIV doesn’t exist is among the sillier notions of the entire debacle, and may be a serious impediment to the resolution of this issue.

HIV exists; without a co-factor (perhaps even with a co-factor), it’s totally harmless. I really can’t decide whether HIV, on its own, has any pathogenesis at all, but I’m sure it’s not the sole cause of AIDS.

One might also comment that if you truly believe that everything I have presented on this forum is “BS”, you might do better getting on with your business of attacking the AIDS machine, rather than wasting your time in this frivolous debate.

Lo et al did not use indirect means to measure Mycoplasma. They Autopsied aids patients and several HIV negative previously healthy patients that died in 1-7 weeks of an undiagniosed infection and expirimantally infected monkeys that died of a fatal wasting disease and found the mycoplasma incognitus directly rotting the patients organs with The electron microscope.

Using the EM to see a microbe rotting patients tissues is about the most solid way to see a microbe in action, and not indirect at all.

As far as some Asymptomatic people testing positive, First I doubt they they were totally asymptomatic, much Like the gulf war vets whos symtoms were written off, and im sure in the early stages of infection one can have mild symptoms that would be counted as asymptomatic.

For an excellent overview of the newly discovered mycoplasma, M.Fermentans Incognitus, and proposals for clinical trials and research designs go to the AIDS.ORG website and the article “Mycoplasma Incognitus: Newly Discovered Treatable Opportunistic Infection.” The article appeared in the early l990’s.

Here: http://www.aids.org/atn/a-095-01.html

I have not been able to find out if the trials regarding use of Doxycycline to treat mycoplasma infection in Aids patients were ever completed and if the results have been published.

So far, it appears that all information regarding the trials has been suppressed.

If anyone has information about this I would very much appreciate an email at (JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

From my long journey into the darkness of AIDSCAM, I believe that there was a faction of the US government that was trying to do a “limited hangout” (google limited hangout) of Aids’ association with biological warfare research. I believe that they were trying to accomplish this through the works and patents of Shyh Ching Lo, and later, the work of Garth and Nancy Nicolson, who found these mycoplasmas in sick and dying Gulf War soldiers, and who developed tests to locate the mycoplasmas and treatment programs using Doxycycline and other antibiotics.

For more information go to: The Mycoplasma Registry.

Dear S-

EM’s are not able to show anything “in action” – They certainly cannot show anything rotting anything… How does one come up with this madness?

FYI-Whatever is being examined is put on slides that are fixed and totally lifeless… Besides, one would expect lots of opportunistic growth in rotting tissue – so what? Maggots found in rotting tissue does not prove that maggots killed the organism—does it?

I am not surprised that both Green and S ignored the abstract I posted: “Mycoplasma species in rapid and slow HIV progressors.”  Intl J STD AIDS. 2000 Feb;11(2):76-9

Hello?

“Mycoplasma” now has 3,230,000 hits on google. Among the best are “Mycoplasmas, Sophisticated, Reemerging and Burdened by their Notoriety,” by Drs. Baseman and Tully, and “Mycoplasma-stealth pathogens” by Leslie Taylor.

“Mycoplasma—The Linking Pathogen in Neurosystemic Diseases,” by Donald Scott focuses on the biowarfare connection.

Re ellner
LoL you have no idea what youre talking about, from Lo’s pathology data.  He took EM pictures of the microbe in patients necrotized tissues, thats about as direct as you get in microbiology, something you know nothing about.

These patients had no sign of immunodefeciancy, and the immunocompetent monkeys that were incoluated that died didn’t either.  Lo concluded based on this evidence that mycoplasmas were pathogenic in their own right for these reasons.

“Furthermore, M. fermentans incognitus particles were identified
ultrastructurally in these histopathological lesions. M. fermentans
incognitus was associated with the systemic necrotizing lesions in these
previously healthly non-AIDS patients with an acute fatal disease.
Typical areas of necrosis due to the M. fermentans incognitus infection of
these patients are shown in FIG. 21. Most of the tissues which had massive
necrosis showed only minimal lymphocytic or histiocytic response”

Lo SC; Dawson MS; Newton PB 3rd; Sonoda MA; Shih JW; Engler WF; Wang RY; Wear DJ. Association of the virus-like infectious agent originally reported in patients with AIDS with acute fatal disease in previously healthy non-AIDS patients. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF TROPICAL MEDICINE AND HYGIENE, September 1989, volume 41, number 3, pages 364-376.

That study you posted is useless, they way to prove a microbe is pathogenic in humans, is 1) see if it present in enough quantities, isolate it and grow it in culture 3) inoculate animals 4) even better to take people who are previously healthy who had no other risk factors who suddenly died, and prove it to be the cause of death on autopsy with the EM.  Lo et al did all these things.

Your maggot analogy is ridicolous, maggots would come after the death, not before, ruling out its role in any disease process.

Amazingly, with all their study both Green and S seem unaware that Dr. Lo did not actually isolate and grow purified samples of his “mycoplasma” from any serum or autopsy.

Instead, Dr Lo used a “woo-woo” viral technique called “transfection” to manufacture his sample and called it isolation.

Lo never injected his animals with purified mycoplasmas as he was unable to grow them in culture – what he did do is inject his lab creation into the animals and he also used his lab creation to invent the probes that he then used for the PCR tests that he claimed “detected” them.  In short, Lo proved nothing!

S wrote: “That study you posted is useless,”

IGNORE THE STUDY BEHIND THE MYCOPLASMA CURTAIN”

Notice S offers no scientific basis to his out-right rejection of “Mycoplasma species in rapid and slow HIV progressors.”  Intl J STD AIDS. 2000 Feb;11(2):76-9—he simply dismisses it out of hand—because this study does not support the failed hypothesis S is trying to push.

At this point, I believe that the most important read for people trying to make sense out of all this is the interview with Dr Stefan Lanka on virusmyth.com (http://www.virusmyth.com/aids/hiv/mcinterviewsl.htm)

S- sure talks lots of trash for some one who hides his identity.

I doubt if I’m the only one who has noticed the intellectual dishonesty implicit in a man who professes that there is no such thing as HIV—an “imaginary virus” he calls it—using a study that depends on the so-called rapid or slow progression of HIV infection, to defend his position.

Ellner finds one study that seems to support his position and immediately decides that those studies that don’t are “madness.

Most of us interested in this issue have visited the Stefan Lanka papers. It’s very interesting that Lanka claims that there are no “opportunistic infections” in AIDS. You’d think this might disturb Ellner as he has repeatedly referred to the Mycoplasmas found by Lo, Montagnier and Nicolson as “opportunistic infections.” (Not to mention that almost every other researcher on the planet—conventional or alternative—thinks of AIDS as an illness of opportunistic infections.)

Lanka also agrees with the Roberto Giraldo claim that if the serum for antibody testing is sufficiently “neat” everybody will test positive for AIDS.

I emailed Roberto Giraldo about this strange circumstance and on June 14, 2006 he send me the following message:

“Truman: Today they have purified the proteins used as antigens in the Elisa test for HIV and the dilution is now similar to that of other serological tests.”

Sounds as though Giraldo thinks there is something known as HIV—in opposition to Lanka and Ellner—and that there are HIV-specific antigens.

And this from Stefan Lanka: “Aids has nothing to do with immune suppression.”

Perhaps Ellner’s a bit premature in recommending Lanka as “the most important read for people trying to make sense out of all this.”

Wrong Mr Ellner, I do not lie.  That study you cited is useless in determining causality.

If you took one group of people who “HIV” positive and another group that was “HIV” positive and also “Malaria” “polio” or “TB” positive and didnt find that those coinfected progressed more rapidly to AIDS, would that not change the fact that Malaria, TB, Polio etc were pathogenic in thier own right?

As far as Lo’s work he saw the agent in the tissues, sorry labratory contaminents dont magically appear in tisses, also he did grow it in culture, even Duesberg admits this in his book.

“The pathology data was solid and convinced us the agents were in the tissues”

“The ability of M.incognitus to cause a fatal wasting disease in monkeys and mice convinced the participants that it had the ability to cause disease in humans”

Dr. Joel Baseman and NIH scientists who were “very impressed” with the quality of science Lo’s group displayed.
New york times 1990 “Mysterious microbe now taken more seriously”

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